But I do think most serious guilds will be on at least 3 night a week schedule with high attendance requirements, plus there’s often extra pressure to do extra nights (maybe one night for dailies/ farming to pay for repairs, one night for 10 mans if you’re in a 25 man guild, etc) because people are competitive and want every competitive advantage.

I should note that I usually raid 1 night a week with the 25 man team and they’re cool with that. They even let me MT. I try to fit in a second 10 man raid night because I love running the raids, plus when you are organising you can fit it to your own schedule.

So I am biased by what I personally see and do, granted.

Gevlon: OK, time isn’t the only requirement But I’m just looking at my server and all of the successful hardcore guilds have fairly heavy schedules during progression.

Also if you assume 2 guilds of similar skill, the one that raids 3 nights a week makes much faster progress than the one that raids 2 nights. Not only do they have an extra night to learn but they also gear up faster, it’s a vicious circle.

And this bit is key: because the 3 night a week raid progresses faster, they have a much better chance at snagging any potential hardcore recruits than the 2 night a week guild (who will mostly be getting hardcoreish players who specifically want a lighter schedule). Successful 25 man raiding is eventually all about recruiting IMO.

They may ease of when the raids are on farm but that leaves you with a few choices IF keeping the playing nights down is a priority:
1/ Join a raid with relaxed attendance requirements (unlikely to be hardcore unless you have good friends there, play a healer, or have some special arrangement)
2/ Join a hardcore guild after a raid is on farm. This will get you sneered at, but also means you miss the actual progression which for many people is the only interesting part of raiding.
3/ Don’t raid. Or only raid with PUGs.

You can’t conceive of a situation where a less skilled group might make more progress than a more skilled group, simply by virtue of being able to raid 4 nights a week compared to 2?

With all other things, including skill, being equal, then game time must indeed be the most important factor in success.

Skill > gear = game time.

We’re an 11-person guild that raids hardcore, but has a similar schedule to yours (3 raid nights a week, 3-4 hours each).

One thing you didn’t think of: the main benefit to being in a more “hardcore” group for me is that I don’t have to drag that sub-par dps through the instance. After years of doing it, I’m just done carrying people. So I only want to raid with a group that is entirely full of people around my skill level. Beating the content faster is more a side effect of not having to carry anyone than it is the end goal. But we’re just one type of guild. We won’t fall apart, but I’m sure guilds built solely around getting the best loot and bragging rights will start to see serious attrition, and what I used to call “Kara guilds” will get to see a lot more content and remain very active.

lol! Auriya is like Karazhan’s younger and slightly hotter sister that you wish you knew about before you started dating Maiden. <3

Yeah, I’ve been playing a bit of Ulduar recently, and I find it just right. I’m not sure if what I’ve played was all post nerf or not, I haven’t been following the Nerf News recently, so I’m not sure when it happened.

Everything feels good, though. 25 is a nice challenge, and I joined a 10 man PUG that was ridiculously solid, and we banged out everything from flame lev through Auriya, and then I had to log. I imagine it just kept going without me, but not sure how far.

I like it.