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	<title>Comments on: Why do villains get the best plots?</title>
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	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/why-do-villains-get-the-best-plots/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
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		<title>By: Relevart</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/why-do-villains-get-the-best-plots/#comment-1192</link>
		<dc:creator>Relevart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 20:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1551#comment-1192</guid>
		<description>What you&#039;re talking about is the sort of neural-net interactions that we see in virtual reality type situations.  Tad Williams wrote about a system like this going tragically wrong because of some players &quot;in-game&quot; actions.  They most certainly became villains but the interaction is exactly what you would  desire in terms of goal setting, options, and desires.  The only things set by the game are the initial conditions and to some extent the playing field.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What you&#8217;re talking about is the sort of neural-net interactions that we see in virtual reality type situations.  Tad Williams wrote about a system like this going tragically wrong because of some players &#8220;in-game&#8221; actions.  They most certainly became villains but the interaction is exactly what you would  desire in terms of goal setting, options, and desires.  The only things set by the game are the initial conditions and to some extent the playing field.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/why-do-villains-get-the-best-plots/#comment-1180</link>
		<dc:creator>spinks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 08:04:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1551#comment-1180</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a good point. I&#039;m not so sure about Picard and Kirk though -- they had great villains but I don&#039;t think that was what defined them. Kirk is still cool (for some values of cool :) )if you haven&#039;t seen that film.

I&#039;m wondering if it&#039;s a part of the Pulp genre (I include superheroes there because they&#039;re a kind of direct descent from that) to have action heroes defined by their enemies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a good point. I&#8217;m not so sure about Picard and Kirk though &#8212; they had great villains but I don&#8217;t think that was what defined them. Kirk is still cool (for some values of cool <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  )if you haven&#8217;t seen that film.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m wondering if it&#8217;s a part of the Pulp genre (I include superheroes there because they&#8217;re a kind of direct descent from that) to have action heroes defined by their enemies.</p>
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		<title>By: Rohan</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/why-do-villains-get-the-best-plots/#comment-1179</link>
		<dc:creator>Rohan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 06:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1551#comment-1179</guid>
		<description>Heroes are often defined by the villains they face.  Thus the cooler the villain, the greater the hero.  Superman-Lex Luthor, Batman-Joker, Holmes-Moriarty, Picard-Borg, Kirk-Khan, etc.

A lesser villain diminishes the hero.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heroes are often defined by the villains they face.  Thus the cooler the villain, the greater the hero.  Superman-Lex Luthor, Batman-Joker, Holmes-Moriarty, Picard-Borg, Kirk-Khan, etc.</p>
<p>A lesser villain diminishes the hero.</p>
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		<title>By: Wiqd</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/why-do-villains-get-the-best-plots/#comment-1175</link>
		<dc:creator>Wiqd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 15:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1551#comment-1175</guid>
		<description>Remember though, Spinks (and you may not be playing it in this manner) that the &quot;heroes&quot; in KOTOR and KOTOR2 CAN be changed to be evil; even the main character. So you&#039;re always presented with situations that you must think on whether or not it will influence you in a good or evil way. That kind of struggle is what makes character development fun :D You don&#039;t have to choose evil, but you do have to choose to go against it to be good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Remember though, Spinks (and you may not be playing it in this manner) that the &#8220;heroes&#8221; in KOTOR and KOTOR2 CAN be changed to be evil; even the main character. So you&#8217;re always presented with situations that you must think on whether or not it will influence you in a good or evil way. That kind of struggle is what makes character development fun <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' />  You don&#8217;t have to choose evil, but you do have to choose to go against it to be good.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/why-do-villains-get-the-best-plots/#comment-1172</link>
		<dc:creator>spinks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 13:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1551#comment-1172</guid>
		<description>I suspect the actual reason that villains get the cool plots is ... so that players have something interesting to do by foiling them. Imagine tracking down the evil overlord (tm) to find out that he was mostly just involved in a local card racket. It&#039;s the same reason that detective stories usually involve particularly complex cases. You can throw the odd simple one in as a red herring but people want to see the detective doing some detecting.

The player&#039;s story arc is generally about travelling around the place,learning more about a cool evil plots and then stopping them, saving the world, and getting the girl/boy/furbolg and more xp and possibly some cool loot. It&#039;s not so much about devising cool plots to gain IC power.

You&#039;re right about it needing practice to make a character interesting or really get into the mindset of a redemption or damnation plot, I think. But I&#039;m playing through Knights of the Old Republic at the moment and loving it (which is why this is on my mind :) ) and the heroes seem pretty interesting there.

I don&#039;t know that I agree that people find the strict code of justice boring. I think it really appeals to a lot of people. Possibly moreso when you actually get the chance to make a moral choice and show what your character is made of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect the actual reason that villains get the cool plots is &#8230; so that players have something interesting to do by foiling them. Imagine tracking down the evil overlord &#8482; to find out that he was mostly just involved in a local card racket. It&#8217;s the same reason that detective stories usually involve particularly complex cases. You can throw the odd simple one in as a red herring but people want to see the detective doing some detecting.</p>
<p>The player&#8217;s story arc is generally about travelling around the place,learning more about a cool evil plots and then stopping them, saving the world, and getting the girl/boy/furbolg and more xp and possibly some cool loot. It&#8217;s not so much about devising cool plots to gain IC power.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right about it needing practice to make a character interesting or really get into the mindset of a redemption or damnation plot, I think. But I&#8217;m playing through Knights of the Old Republic at the moment and loving it (which is why this is on my mind <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  ) and the heroes seem pretty interesting there.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know that I agree that people find the strict code of justice boring. I think it really appeals to a lot of people. Possibly moreso when you actually get the chance to make a moral choice and show what your character is made of.</p>
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		<title>By: Wiqd</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/why-do-villains-get-the-best-plots/#comment-1171</link>
		<dc:creator>Wiqd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 13:25:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1551#comment-1171</guid>
		<description>I think the idea that a villain has less strings attached when it comes to actually carrying out a plot is one of the main reasons they look so kewl. The villain appeals to the &quot;human&quot; side of the world more overtly than a hero does. You can see their problems, how they&#039;ve decided to handle them and the basic necessity for violence and power-gain becomes very visible.

Heroes, on the other hand, try their best to live by the strict code of justice and people just find that ... boring. I mean you&#039;re basically playing a policeman in a game that can throw fireballs or run fast or whatever. 

Now, once you&#039;ve played a bit in various mediums (table tops, computer games, LARP, etc) you have undoubtedly worked on character development skills so you can actually MAKE a hero interesting. How so? By giving them a past, by giving them feelings, inner turmoil, the want to be bad, but counted on by society to do good. Maybe they just wonder for a split second each day what it&#039;s like to be the villain.

I&#039;ve played a lot of &quot;downfall&quot; characters and I must say it&#039;s very fun. It&#039;s also fun to portray the hero that is beset on ALL sides by evil, but remains steadfast to his cause. Tirion Fordring comes to mind from WoW ;) But then you have Mograine who goes evil from being raised good, then returns to good when he sees what evil truly is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the idea that a villain has less strings attached when it comes to actually carrying out a plot is one of the main reasons they look so kewl. The villain appeals to the &#8220;human&#8221; side of the world more overtly than a hero does. You can see their problems, how they&#8217;ve decided to handle them and the basic necessity for violence and power-gain becomes very visible.</p>
<p>Heroes, on the other hand, try their best to live by the strict code of justice and people just find that &#8230; boring. I mean you&#8217;re basically playing a policeman in a game that can throw fireballs or run fast or whatever. </p>
<p>Now, once you&#8217;ve played a bit in various mediums (table tops, computer games, LARP, etc) you have undoubtedly worked on character development skills so you can actually MAKE a hero interesting. How so? By giving them a past, by giving them feelings, inner turmoil, the want to be bad, but counted on by society to do good. Maybe they just wonder for a split second each day what it&#8217;s like to be the villain.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve played a lot of &#8220;downfall&#8221; characters and I must say it&#8217;s very fun. It&#8217;s also fun to portray the hero that is beset on ALL sides by evil, but remains steadfast to his cause. Tirion Fordring comes to mind from WoW <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  But then you have Mograine who goes evil from being raised good, then returns to good when he sees what evil truly is.</p>
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		<title>By: West Karana » Daily Blogroll 5/28 &#8212; No funny name episode</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/why-do-villains-get-the-best-plots/#comment-1170</link>
		<dc:creator>West Karana » Daily Blogroll 5/28 &#8212; No funny name episode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 13:16:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1551#comment-1170</guid>
		<description>[...] that guy) vs those of villains (destroy civilization, defeat the gods, rule the world) and wonders why villains always get the best plots? She suggests using other players as foils for villainous plots, because, well, game designers [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that guy) vs those of villains (destroy civilization, defeat the gods, rule the world) and wonders why villains always get the best plots? She suggests using other players as foils for villainous plots, because, well, game designers [...]</p>
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