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	<title>Comments on: Where&#8217;s the beef?</title>
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	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/wheres-the-beef/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
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		<title>By: Lewis</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/wheres-the-beef/#comment-1267</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lewis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1572#comment-1267</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I still think Alyx Vance from HL2 is the greatest female character in a video game ever, full stop.  Valve did a fantastic job of making her look really good yet not slutty at all, plus she kicks major tail.

I appreciate a well-populated chainmail bikini as much as the next guy, but even I get tired of the way female characters get portrayed.  Males, too, really.  Not every guy in Stormwind is a roided-up Hulk Hogan with a mullet, after all, just like not every woman is a 36DD with childbearing hips.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still think Alyx Vance from HL2 is the greatest female character in a video game ever, full stop.  Valve did a fantastic job of making her look really good yet not slutty at all, plus she kicks major tail.</p>
<p>I appreciate a well-populated chainmail bikini as much as the next guy, but even I get tired of the way female characters get portrayed.  Males, too, really.  Not every guy in Stormwind is a roided-up Hulk Hogan with a mullet, after all, just like not every woman is a 36DD with childbearing hips.</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/wheres-the-beef/#comment-1257</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:47:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1572#comment-1257</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually, back in the &quot;good old days&quot; of SWG there were a LOT of &quot;fat old guys&quot; running around.  A lot of people found it hilarious that they could do so.  I think my favorite was the morbidly obese male human Master Dancer who only ever wore pink hotpants.  He was a riot.  There were a lot of fat wookiees around too for some reason.  Maybe it was just my server, but.... all kinds of shapes and sizes that I saw.

Yeah, there were a lot of grotesquely oversized boobs on the female toons too, but I made mine properly proportioned, and even got comments on how my toon looked better than most due to that -- I even went Image Designer for a couple of months so I could &quot;downsize&quot; several female friends who decided that they didn&#039;t want to &quot;slut it up&quot; anymore.  After that, if we ever saw anyone &quot;oversized&quot; we&#039;d assume it was a teenaged boy who hasn&#039;t learned that &quot;bigger isn&#039;t always better&quot; yet.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, back in the &#8220;good old days&#8221; of SWG there were a LOT of &#8220;fat old guys&#8221; running around.  A lot of people found it hilarious that they could do so.  I think my favorite was the morbidly obese male human Master Dancer who only ever wore pink hotpants.  He was a riot.  There were a lot of fat wookiees around too for some reason.  Maybe it was just my server, but&#8230;. all kinds of shapes and sizes that I saw.</p>
<p>Yeah, there were a lot of grotesquely oversized boobs on the female toons too, but I made mine properly proportioned, and even got comments on how my toon looked better than most due to that &#8212; I even went Image Designer for a couple of months so I could &#8220;downsize&#8221; several female friends who decided that they didn&#8217;t want to &#8220;slut it up&#8221; anymore.  After that, if we ever saw anyone &#8220;oversized&#8221; we&#8217;d assume it was a teenaged boy who hasn&#8217;t learned that &#8220;bigger isn&#8217;t always better&#8221; yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Bald, Fat Old Men With Beards - We Fly Spitfires - MMORPG Blog</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/wheres-the-beef/#comment-1256</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bald, Fat Old Men With Beards - We Fly Spitfires - MMORPG Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:18:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1572#comment-1256</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] posted an interesting article about the way male and female characters are portrayed in games. It&#8217;s a good read - I&#8217;d urge you to check it out - but I won&#8217;t repeat it all. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] posted an interesting article about the way male and female characters are portrayed in games. It&#8217;s a good read &#8211; I&#8217;d urge you to check it out &#8211; but I won&#8217;t repeat it all. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Hatch</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/wheres-the-beef/#comment-1251</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hatch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 17:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1572#comment-1251</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Everybody&#039;s got good points here.  I think we&#039;d all like to see more variety in our men and women.  WoW is actually a shining example of this (dwarf/troll/orc/tauren/gnome females, troll and gnome males) at the same time that it&#039;s a massive disappointment on this front in other ways (the TERRIBLE illustrator they hired to do the loading screens for Azeroth is the worst.  I&#039;m a very straight young man yet the way the females look on the loading screens is decidedly unnattractive.  He&#039;s trying too hard to do cheesecake and instead making malformed barbie dolls).

Misogyny is real throughout society, 99% of the people who make games are men (we only know of one person on the entire Blizzard staff who is female, and she&#039;s a community rep.  Any of their executives?  Any of their game designers girls?  At all?), and the marketers know that sex sells, and both women and men in our society are socialized/trained to prefer sexualized, objectified female images.  But things are improving, and I think they will keep improving as long as we don&#039;t let anyone pretend that misogyny isn&#039;t real.  :)

And yes, the male avatars are consistently muscular in a way that is nearly unachievable for regular guys.  But I&#039;d argue that a) fighting in a bikini is worse, at least muscles makes sense for an adventurer, where are the muscles on the girls? and b) both are idealized for what men want to see.  Women don&#039;t want super muscle man with ugly face, they want well-toned man with some (but not too much) muscles and a handsome face.

I want to see more women like Fray and the girl from Beyond Good and Evil out there.  They are hot too.  There are a lot of ways to make a woman HOT without resorting to tracing a porn video.  Not that I don&#039;t love porn.  :)  Just don&#039;t want to mix my peanut butter with my chocolate, if you know what I mean.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everybody&#8217;s got good points here.  I think we&#8217;d all like to see more variety in our men and women.  WoW is actually a shining example of this (dwarf/troll/orc/tauren/gnome females, troll and gnome males) at the same time that it&#8217;s a massive disappointment on this front in other ways (the TERRIBLE illustrator they hired to do the loading screens for Azeroth is the worst.  I&#8217;m a very straight young man yet the way the females look on the loading screens is decidedly unnattractive.  He&#8217;s trying too hard to do cheesecake and instead making malformed barbie dolls).</p>
<p>Misogyny is real throughout society, 99% of the people who make games are men (we only know of one person on the entire Blizzard staff who is female, and she&#8217;s a community rep.  Any of their executives?  Any of their game designers girls?  At all?), and the marketers know that sex sells, and both women and men in our society are socialized/trained to prefer sexualized, objectified female images.  But things are improving, and I think they will keep improving as long as we don&#8217;t let anyone pretend that misogyny isn&#8217;t real.  <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>And yes, the male avatars are consistently muscular in a way that is nearly unachievable for regular guys.  But I&#8217;d argue that a) fighting in a bikini is worse, at least muscles makes sense for an adventurer, where are the muscles on the girls? and b) both are idealized for what men want to see.  Women don&#8217;t want super muscle man with ugly face, they want well-toned man with some (but not too much) muscles and a handsome face.</p>
<p>I want to see more women like Fray and the girl from Beyond Good and Evil out there.  They are hot too.  There are a lot of ways to make a woman HOT without resorting to tracing a porn video.  Not that I don&#8217;t love porn.  <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   Just don&#8217;t want to mix my peanut butter with my chocolate, if you know what I mean.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/wheres-the-beef/#comment-1250</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jennifer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 17:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1572#comment-1250</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for mentioning the post!  I think your first answer is ultimately the most logical one: that these games are intended to satisfy the fantasies of a predominantly heterosexual male audience.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for mentioning the post!  I think your first answer is ultimately the most logical one: that these games are intended to satisfy the fantasies of a predominantly heterosexual male audience.</p>
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		<title>By: stabs</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/wheres-the-beef/#comment-1244</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[stabs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 14:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1572#comment-1244</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Tarsus true but they were awesome back in the 80s and CCP are pretty good managers of a game. We&#039;ll have to wait and see whether it works but I do think that with CCP being involved some of the more obvious mistakes of other MMO launches might be avoided. (Notably designing it to run on an over-clocked NASA supercomputer with 54&quot; monitor which is presumably how games like Vanguard and AoC were developed).

Eve works on a low end machine and until recently some people were using dial-up yet still manages to look pretty sharp.

I was listening to Warp Drive Active yesterday and someone from CCP North America was raving about how much they like the White Wolf staff.

Little things I know but in a climate where these things get launched in states which are headscratchingly ridiculous I suggest there is ground to expect that we won&#039;t have to buy bigger fangs from the online store, won&#039;t have to buy a new PC nor will we have to install a version of Windows that is 2 weeks old to play it (or any of the other completely daft things MMO devs sometimes think is a good idea).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tarsus true but they were awesome back in the 80s and CCP are pretty good managers of a game. We&#8217;ll have to wait and see whether it works but I do think that with CCP being involved some of the more obvious mistakes of other MMO launches might be avoided. (Notably designing it to run on an over-clocked NASA supercomputer with 54&#8243; monitor which is presumably how games like Vanguard and AoC were developed).</p>
<p>Eve works on a low end machine and until recently some people were using dial-up yet still manages to look pretty sharp.</p>
<p>I was listening to Warp Drive Active yesterday and someone from CCP North America was raving about how much they like the White Wolf staff.</p>
<p>Little things I know but in a climate where these things get launched in states which are headscratchingly ridiculous I suggest there is ground to expect that we won&#8217;t have to buy bigger fangs from the online store, won&#8217;t have to buy a new PC nor will we have to install a version of Windows that is 2 weeks old to play it (or any of the other completely daft things MMO devs sometimes think is a good idea).</p>
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		<title>By: Tarsus</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/wheres-the-beef/#comment-1243</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tarsus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 14:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1572#comment-1243</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, if you think the video gamer demographic is dominated by men, take a look at the video game designer graphic.  It will probably take at least another &quot;generation&quot; before the demographics get caught up on the side that makes the games to the point where the players are now.

There is also something to be said for the things that tend to be attractive to men and women being different.  Some things are easier to &quot;render&quot; than others.

@Stabs - Looking at this from a history of White Wolf&#039;s capacity to manage its IP once it is out of their hands, we&#039;ll be lucky if the vampires don&#039;t sparkle in daylight.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, if you think the video gamer demographic is dominated by men, take a look at the video game designer graphic.  It will probably take at least another &#8220;generation&#8221; before the demographics get caught up on the side that makes the games to the point where the players are now.</p>
<p>There is also something to be said for the things that tend to be attractive to men and women being different.  Some things are easier to &#8220;render&#8221; than others.</p>
<p>@Stabs &#8211; Looking at this from a history of White Wolf&#8217;s capacity to manage its IP once it is out of their hands, we&#8217;ll be lucky if the vampires don&#8217;t sparkle in daylight.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/wheres-the-beef/#comment-1241</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 12:35:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1572#comment-1241</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jade is /awesome/. That is all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jade is /awesome/. That is all.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/wheres-the-beef/#comment-1240</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 12:24:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1572#comment-1240</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Surely a decent artist can draw a hot woman who isn’t showing masses of skin, just … look at real life for examples.&quot;

I&#039;ve always had a video game crush on Jade from Beyond Good &amp; Evil:  http://www.firingsquad.com/media/gallery_index.asp/22

She&#039;s neither over-sexed nor scantly clad.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Surely a decent artist can draw a hot woman who isn’t showing masses of skin, just … look at real life for examples.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve always had a video game crush on Jade from Beyond Good &amp; Evil:  <a href="http://www.firingsquad.com/media/gallery_index.asp/22" rel="nofollow">http://www.firingsquad.com/media/gallery_index.asp/22</a></p>
<p>She&#8217;s neither over-sexed nor scantly clad.</p>
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		<title>By: Flimgoblin</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/wheres-the-beef/#comment-1239</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Flimgoblin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 12:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1572#comment-1239</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Am I allowed to want to play a vampire game too? despite not being 18-25 or female :P

Still waiting for another game along the lines of Vampire: Bloodlines]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Am I allowed to want to play a vampire game too? despite not being 18-25 or female <img src='http://s2.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Still waiting for another game along the lines of Vampire: Bloodlines</p>
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