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	<title>Comments on: A tale of two guild hoppers</title>
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	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/a-tale-of-two-guild-hoppers/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
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		<title>By: L2wipe: A Casual Raider&#8217;s Guide to Hardcore Wiping &#171; Altadin</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/a-tale-of-two-guild-hoppers/#comment-3193</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[L2wipe: A Casual Raider&#8217;s Guide to Hardcore Wiping &#171; Altadin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1594#comment-3193</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] a recent post, A Tale of Two Guild Hoppers, Spinks waxes philosophical about a friend&#039;s decision to leave his new guild after wiping on [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a recent post, A Tale of Two Guild Hoppers, Spinks waxes philosophical about a friend&#39;s decision to leave his new guild after wiping on [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Hatch</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/a-tale-of-two-guild-hoppers/#comment-1341</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hatch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 19:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1594#comment-1341</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It sounds from a lot of comments like finding the right guild is a tough thing to do.  Lots of people who value friendship first ending up in a hardcore guild and hating it, and then people who want to progress getting stuck in friendly, social guilds and hating it.  People would be a lot happier, I think, if the main thing that they looked for in a guild was whether it was socially-focused or progression-focused.  IMO, both are equally valid, and everyone should be free to enjoy the one they prefer, or a guild that strikes a balance between them that they are happy with (like Vlad&#039;s guild).   I don&#039;t think it&#039;s fair to say that &quot;guilds in wow suck&quot; because you happen to be socially-focused but only joined progression guilds and were unhappy, nor is it fair to say that people with progression priorities are all disloyal jerks or people with social priorities are bad players or idiots.

Of course, this isn&#039;t just one person&#039;s responsibility.  If you join a social guild, but then a faction decides they want to progress or the GM starts inviting lots of progression-minded people through poor screening, than you can end up unhappy through no fault of your own.  Same in the other direction (&quot;progression guild&quot; leader allowing any and all friends and family to get invites, forcing the raid to drag spouses and children through raids who have no interest in learning to play).

I&#039;ve been in all these situations: been the casual player feeling betrayed by the pragmatic choices of a hardcore guild he thought was a guild of friends, and later the progression-minded person fitting in badly with a casual guild, and even the guild recruiter and raid leader struggling to strike a balance that makes both the hardcore and the social in the guild happy.  In the end, I made a small guild with just my friends who happen to be awesome raiders.  That way I fulfill both impulses at once.  The downside is that not all of my friends in-game get to be in the guild.  That&#039;s the trade off I&#039;m willing to live with because I prioritize progression, but I also spend time with them outside of raids and in shared chat channels because I don&#039;t want to be heartless about it, either.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds from a lot of comments like finding the right guild is a tough thing to do.  Lots of people who value friendship first ending up in a hardcore guild and hating it, and then people who want to progress getting stuck in friendly, social guilds and hating it.  People would be a lot happier, I think, if the main thing that they looked for in a guild was whether it was socially-focused or progression-focused.  IMO, both are equally valid, and everyone should be free to enjoy the one they prefer, or a guild that strikes a balance between them that they are happy with (like Vlad&#8217;s guild).   I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s fair to say that &#8220;guilds in wow suck&#8221; because you happen to be socially-focused but only joined progression guilds and were unhappy, nor is it fair to say that people with progression priorities are all disloyal jerks or people with social priorities are bad players or idiots.</p>
<p>Of course, this isn&#8217;t just one person&#8217;s responsibility.  If you join a social guild, but then a faction decides they want to progress or the GM starts inviting lots of progression-minded people through poor screening, than you can end up unhappy through no fault of your own.  Same in the other direction (&#8220;progression guild&#8221; leader allowing any and all friends and family to get invites, forcing the raid to drag spouses and children through raids who have no interest in learning to play).</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been in all these situations: been the casual player feeling betrayed by the pragmatic choices of a hardcore guild he thought was a guild of friends, and later the progression-minded person fitting in badly with a casual guild, and even the guild recruiter and raid leader struggling to strike a balance that makes both the hardcore and the social in the guild happy.  In the end, I made a small guild with just my friends who happen to be awesome raiders.  That way I fulfill both impulses at once.  The downside is that not all of my friends in-game get to be in the guild.  That&#8217;s the trade off I&#8217;m willing to live with because I prioritize progression, but I also spend time with them outside of raids and in shared chat channels because I don&#8217;t want to be heartless about it, either.</p>
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		<title>By: Keen</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/a-tale-of-two-guild-hoppers/#comment-1334</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Keen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 02:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1594#comment-1334</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Progressionist guilds are why I have grown to hate guilds over the years.  Valuing advancement over the person behind the character is not a guild, it&#039;s a stepping stone.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Progressionist guilds are why I have grown to hate guilds over the years.  Valuing advancement over the person behind the character is not a guild, it&#8217;s a stepping stone.</p>
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		<title>By: Stabs</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/a-tale-of-two-guild-hoppers/#comment-1330</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stabs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 21:48:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1594#comment-1330</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the consumer producer paradigm is very noticeable here. Producer types who build up their guilds tend to be extremely loyal but to a consumer it makes perfect sense to shop around for an upgraded experience.

One interesting phenomenon is the birth of the wipeless hardcore player.

WoW end game progression is about wiping. Generally the more you wipe the further you get.

However to people who started raiding in the late TBC or with Naxx the raids were so easy that some people could just gallop through them. Even first attempts could be one-shots. So their notion of a good raid team is one that never wipes and a bad raid team is one that wipes. I think a lot of those hopping to progressed guilds will find that they move from a guild that romps through Naxx and early U collecting purples to a guild that spends long hours wiping on a very hard boss. I also think many of them will not enjoy it, the hardcore game experience they seek is actually kinda, well, hardcore.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the consumer producer paradigm is very noticeable here. Producer types who build up their guilds tend to be extremely loyal but to a consumer it makes perfect sense to shop around for an upgraded experience.</p>
<p>One interesting phenomenon is the birth of the wipeless hardcore player.</p>
<p>WoW end game progression is about wiping. Generally the more you wipe the further you get.</p>
<p>However to people who started raiding in the late TBC or with Naxx the raids were so easy that some people could just gallop through them. Even first attempts could be one-shots. So their notion of a good raid team is one that never wipes and a bad raid team is one that wipes. I think a lot of those hopping to progressed guilds will find that they move from a guild that romps through Naxx and early U collecting purples to a guild that spends long hours wiping on a very hard boss. I also think many of them will not enjoy it, the hardcore game experience they seek is actually kinda, well, hardcore.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: L2wipe: A Casual Raider&#8217;s Guide to Hardcore Wiping &#171; Fel Fire</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/a-tale-of-two-guild-hoppers/#comment-1326</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[L2wipe: A Casual Raider&#8217;s Guide to Hardcore Wiping &#171; Fel Fire]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 20:23:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1594#comment-1326</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] a recent post, A Tale of Two Guild Hoppers, Spinks waxes philosophical about a friend&#8217;s decision to leave his new guild after wiping on [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a recent post, A Tale of Two Guild Hoppers, Spinks waxes philosophical about a friend&#8217;s decision to leave his new guild after wiping on [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Copernicus</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/a-tale-of-two-guild-hoppers/#comment-1323</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Copernicus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 16:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1594#comment-1323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hope that progression minded people move on from my guild, because their QQing about slow progress brings down the morale of the rest of the raid. Most of us know that we&#039;ll down the boss eventually, and are willing to deal with wipe after wipe because we&#039;re doing it with friends.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope that progression minded people move on from my guild, because their QQing about slow progress brings down the morale of the rest of the raid. Most of us know that we&#8217;ll down the boss eventually, and are willing to deal with wipe after wipe because we&#8217;re doing it with friends.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Guild Loyalty &#171; A High Latency Life</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/a-tale-of-two-guild-hoppers/#comment-1322</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Guild Loyalty &#171; A High Latency Life]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 16:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1594#comment-1322</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] reminded me of this post by [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] reminded me of this post by [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Elleiras</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/a-tale-of-two-guild-hoppers/#comment-1321</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Elleiras]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:57:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1594#comment-1321</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have a hard time sympathizing with your friend in the second case study. Two weeks on Mimiron isn&#039;t a &quot;brick wall&quot;; it&#039;s a learning experience. If he doesn&#039;t understand this, he isn&#039;t hardcore material.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a hard time sympathizing with your friend in the second case study. Two weeks on Mimiron isn&#8217;t a &#8220;brick wall&#8221;; it&#8217;s a learning experience. If he doesn&#8217;t understand this, he isn&#8217;t hardcore material.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: West Karana » Daily Blogroll 6/4 &#8212; Get off my lawn edition</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/a-tale-of-two-guild-hoppers/#comment-1314</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[West Karana » Daily Blogroll 6/4 &#8212; Get off my lawn edition]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1594#comment-1314</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] tells the sorry tales of two guild hoppers, both of whom decided to switch guilds for guilds further up in the World of Warcraft raid [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] tells the sorry tales of two guild hoppers, both of whom decided to switch guilds for guilds further up in the World of Warcraft raid [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/a-tale-of-two-guild-hoppers/#comment-1313</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1594#comment-1313</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yakra: I agree also, I&#039;m not out to make moral judgements here. Both of these guys were very upfront about their goals and motivations, and in TBC I also switched raid communities because I was bored and wanted to see Hyjal, and wanted to switch alts.

It&#039;s just how the game is, I think. If your personal goal is progression than it&#039;s very very likely that at some point you&#039;ll have to decide if your current group/guild/raid is able to provide it or not.

But equally, it&#039;s silly to label someone as Bad just because they haven&#039;t yet cleared the current raid instance of choice. It may be that they&#039;re a decent player who decided that they&#039;d live with slower progression because they wanted to hang with friends.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yakra: I agree also, I&#8217;m not out to make moral judgements here. Both of these guys were very upfront about their goals and motivations, and in TBC I also switched raid communities because I was bored and wanted to see Hyjal, and wanted to switch alts.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s just how the game is, I think. If your personal goal is progression than it&#8217;s very very likely that at some point you&#8217;ll have to decide if your current group/guild/raid is able to provide it or not.</p>
<p>But equally, it&#8217;s silly to label someone as Bad just because they haven&#8217;t yet cleared the current raid instance of choice. It may be that they&#8217;re a decent player who decided that they&#8217;d live with slower progression because they wanted to hang with friends.</p>
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