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	<title>Comments on: When good players aren&#8217;t</title>
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	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/when-good-players-arent/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
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		<title>By: casual hardcore at Righteous Orbs</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/when-good-players-arent/#comment-3512</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[casual hardcore at Righteous Orbs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 15:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1648#comment-3512</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] are been a slew of interesting posts over at Spinksville about the dumbing down of WoW and the problem with supposedly hardcore [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] are been a slew of interesting posts over at Spinksville about the dumbing down of WoW and the problem with supposedly hardcore [...]</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/when-good-players-arent/#comment-1578</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:56:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1648#comment-1578</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stabs: I&#039;ve seen tanks do crazy pulls to show off in instances (I *coff* may also have been slightly guilty of doing it myself on some occasions). It&#039;s not bad play, but if you&#039;re with people who aren&#039;t used to it, it&#039;s going to wipe you.

Wolfshead: That makes a lot of sense. And it isn&#039;t just the broader demographic, some of it is just experienced players dealing with less experienced players. Or people who&#039;ve been hanging out online for 10 years with their own idea of netiquette having to deal with the facebook crowd. I honestly feel that we&#039;re watching the internet grow up in front of us and this is part of the growing pains.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stabs: I&#8217;ve seen tanks do crazy pulls to show off in instances (I *coff* may also have been slightly guilty of doing it myself on some occasions). It&#8217;s not bad play, but if you&#8217;re with people who aren&#8217;t used to it, it&#8217;s going to wipe you.</p>
<p>Wolfshead: That makes a lot of sense. And it isn&#8217;t just the broader demographic, some of it is just experienced players dealing with less experienced players. Or people who&#8217;ve been hanging out online for 10 years with their own idea of netiquette having to deal with the facebook crowd. I honestly feel that we&#8217;re watching the internet grow up in front of us and this is part of the growing pains.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Wolfshead</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/when-good-players-arent/#comment-1577</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wolfshead]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1648#comment-1577</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Get used to bad players like these. Like the barbarians at the gates of ancient Rome they are coming to a MMO near you in increasing numbers thanks to the insatiable need of MMO companies to broaden their demographics.

http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=852

The problem is that the quality of the player base become more and more diluted. At what point will the community are large say &quot;enough&quot;? The problem is that as the community keeps getting worse no one will even care. By that time good people will have long left your favorite MMO if they already haven&#039;t left.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Get used to bad players like these. Like the barbarians at the gates of ancient Rome they are coming to a MMO near you in increasing numbers thanks to the insatiable need of MMO companies to broaden their demographics.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=852" rel="nofollow">http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=852</a></p>
<p>The problem is that the quality of the player base become more and more diluted. At what point will the community are large say &#8220;enough&#8221;? The problem is that as the community keeps getting worse no one will even care. By that time good people will have long left your favorite MMO if they already haven&#8217;t left.</p>
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		<title>By: lantanasham</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/when-good-players-arent/#comment-1564</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lantanasham]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 14:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1648#comment-1564</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I completely agree with spinks. In fact, pretty much every one of the hardcore players I know has explained to me how he his rommmate used his toon, his buddy started that toon, he switched toons with someone, etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely agree with spinks. In fact, pretty much every one of the hardcore players I know has explained to me how he his rommmate used his toon, his buddy started that toon, he switched toons with someone, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Stabs</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/when-good-players-arent/#comment-1552</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stabs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 23:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1648#comment-1552</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Skilled players goofing off has varied a lot by role:

Tanks: I&#039;ve never seen a tank for a good raid guild who couldn&#039;t play an excellent 5 man. I have seen them play semi-afk with long pointless pauses between pulls at irregular intervals. Understandable since tanks are often also officers but annoying too.

Healers: I&#039;ve never seen a healer from a strong guild who sucked in a 5 man. I&#039;ve seen annoying superior or smug healers but never an incompetent one even by my own rather demanding standards.

DPS: The natural tendency of well-geared dps slumming it with randoms in a pug is to create problems for other people. To be honest I saw it more in the level 60 wait for 3 sunders days when you were boned as a tank if a dps out-geared you. Now it&#039;s still annoying to see them overaggro and blame the tank and healer. I&#039;ve played with a couple like that this year who&#039;ve ended up getting the boot and everyone cheered to see them go (while they presumably ran back to their guild whining about noobs). The current dynamic is that is your tanks have the same or better level of gear you almost never need to throttle threat so there are some dps raiders in very advanced guilds who can&#039;t manage that basic skill.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Skilled players goofing off has varied a lot by role:</p>
<p>Tanks: I&#8217;ve never seen a tank for a good raid guild who couldn&#8217;t play an excellent 5 man. I have seen them play semi-afk with long pointless pauses between pulls at irregular intervals. Understandable since tanks are often also officers but annoying too.</p>
<p>Healers: I&#8217;ve never seen a healer from a strong guild who sucked in a 5 man. I&#8217;ve seen annoying superior or smug healers but never an incompetent one even by my own rather demanding standards.</p>
<p>DPS: The natural tendency of well-geared dps slumming it with randoms in a pug is to create problems for other people. To be honest I saw it more in the level 60 wait for 3 sunders days when you were boned as a tank if a dps out-geared you. Now it&#8217;s still annoying to see them overaggro and blame the tank and healer. I&#8217;ve played with a couple like that this year who&#8217;ve ended up getting the boot and everyone cheered to see them go (while they presumably ran back to their guild whining about noobs). The current dynamic is that is your tanks have the same or better level of gear you almost never need to throttle threat so there are some dps raiders in very advanced guilds who can&#8217;t manage that basic skill.</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/when-good-players-arent/#comment-1545</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tesh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1648#comment-1545</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Heartily seconded.  I&#039;ve wished for more dynamic content for a long time now.  Not only would it help this sort of concern, but it would help to keep the game fresh for longer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heartily seconded.  I&#8217;ve wished for more dynamic content for a long time now.  Not only would it help this sort of concern, but it would help to keep the game fresh for longer.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Hirvox</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/when-good-players-arent/#comment-1544</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hirvox]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:49:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1648#comment-1544</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And I&#039;m not saying that everyone slacks all the time. But those who don&#039;t even consider WoW to be a game to be taken seriously do slack. And that people may temporarily be in that mindset if they&#039;re doing too easy or too hard content (relative to their skill/gear level).

When one is in that mindset, the usual rewards of purple pixels, the play experience itself, social acceptance, learning the game, sense of accomplishment, victory over other players etc are worthless. Because there&#039;s nothing to be gained, they venture nothing.

I have no problems with the newbie that&#039;s trying to better himself. And I don&#039;t have any problems with the &quot;not a game&quot; types as long as they&#039;re not slacking off in a group that I&#039;m in. If they are.. I&#039;ll use my freedom to not associate with them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I&#8217;m not saying that everyone slacks all the time. But those who don&#8217;t even consider WoW to be a game to be taken seriously do slack. And that people may temporarily be in that mindset if they&#8217;re doing too easy or too hard content (relative to their skill/gear level).</p>
<p>When one is in that mindset, the usual rewards of purple pixels, the play experience itself, social acceptance, learning the game, sense of accomplishment, victory over other players etc are worthless. Because there&#8217;s nothing to be gained, they venture nothing.</p>
<p>I have no problems with the newbie that&#8217;s trying to better himself. And I don&#8217;t have any problems with the &#8220;not a game&#8221; types as long as they&#8217;re not slacking off in a group that I&#8217;m in. If they are.. I&#8217;ll use my freedom to not associate with them.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/when-good-players-arent/#comment-1542</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1648#comment-1542</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Or else some people just enjoy trying to learn their class and have fun in groups. I don&#039;t agree that everyone would slack as much as they can get away with. Some people just don&#039;t get their fun like that is all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or else some people just enjoy trying to learn their class and have fun in groups. I don&#8217;t agree that everyone would slack as much as they can get away with. Some people just don&#8217;t get their fun like that is all.</p>
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		<title>By: Hirvox</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/when-good-players-arent/#comment-1538</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hirvox]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 12:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1648#comment-1538</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Of course, not all everyone considers WoW to be just an irrelevant pastime. No matter whether it&#039;s due to altruism, personal &quot;work ethic&quot;, desire for social acceptance or any other reason, one can have a decent PuG with these people.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, not all everyone considers WoW to be just an irrelevant pastime. No matter whether it&#8217;s due to altruism, personal &#8220;work ethic&#8221;, desire for social acceptance or any other reason, one can have a decent PuG with these people.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/when-good-players-arent/#comment-1527</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1648#comment-1527</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That doesn&#039;t really explain good PUGs though? I&#039;ve had a lot of fun playing with randoms from the LFG channel. I do think my server is unusually good for PUGs (or at least it&#039;s what friends tell me who have transferred there) though. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That doesn&#8217;t really explain good PUGs though? I&#8217;ve had a lot of fun playing with randoms from the LFG channel. I do think my server is unusually good for PUGs (or at least it&#8217;s what friends tell me who have transferred there) though. </p>
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