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	<title>Comments on: My exploit; your lateral thinking; his emergent gameplay</title>
	<atom:link href="http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/my-exploit-your-lateral-thinking-his-emergent-gameplay/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/my-exploit-your-lateral-thinking-his-emergent-gameplay/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Stabs</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/my-exploit-your-lateral-thinking-his-emergent-gameplay/#comment-1807</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stabs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:22:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1742#comment-1807</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m with Gevlon on this. I think there is a line between clever use of game mechanics and cheating and that players should use their judgment to play in a manner that is acceptable.

Before MMOs I used to play Diablo 2. In that game people devised various cheats. Speed hacks where a character could zoom in and kill you. Dupes where you could manufacture infinite copies of rare items. And in Diablo 1 there had been townkill, a hack that allowed you to kill people in the safe area.

Not only does cheating make a game unplayable when it becomes over-powered and rampant (it did for Diablo 1) but it is very hard on the servers. Duping for example was done by transferring an item to a mule, logging the mule off (so the mule is saved) then crashing the game (hoping to roll back your main character to get the original item restored to inventory).

Certain forms of behaviour are best kept in certain games. In Eve for example it&#039;s a dog eat dog world where someone can pretend to be your friend, work hard for your guild and then destroy it from within. That&#039;s normal and admired gameplay. In WoW a guy I know specialised in robbing raid guilds. He&#039;d join the guilds, play well, be proactive, work his way to officer status then steal the guild bank. He did 3 of the biggest Alliance raid guilds on my old server Scarshield Legion EU. Admirable in EVE, lame in WOW.

Some forms of cheating are clearly going to kill the game. If someone developed a hack in Free Realms or Hellow Kitty Online that allowed them to corpse camp and teabag the little kiddies who play that game it would break the game.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Gevlon on this. I think there is a line between clever use of game mechanics and cheating and that players should use their judgment to play in a manner that is acceptable.</p>
<p>Before MMOs I used to play Diablo 2. In that game people devised various cheats. Speed hacks where a character could zoom in and kill you. Dupes where you could manufacture infinite copies of rare items. And in Diablo 1 there had been townkill, a hack that allowed you to kill people in the safe area.</p>
<p>Not only does cheating make a game unplayable when it becomes over-powered and rampant (it did for Diablo 1) but it is very hard on the servers. Duping for example was done by transferring an item to a mule, logging the mule off (so the mule is saved) then crashing the game (hoping to roll back your main character to get the original item restored to inventory).</p>
<p>Certain forms of behaviour are best kept in certain games. In Eve for example it&#8217;s a dog eat dog world where someone can pretend to be your friend, work hard for your guild and then destroy it from within. That&#8217;s normal and admired gameplay. In WoW a guy I know specialised in robbing raid guilds. He&#8217;d join the guilds, play well, be proactive, work his way to officer status then steal the guild bank. He did 3 of the biggest Alliance raid guilds on my old server Scarshield Legion EU. Admirable in EVE, lame in WOW.</p>
<p>Some forms of cheating are clearly going to kill the game. If someone developed a hack in Free Realms or Hellow Kitty Online that allowed them to corpse camp and teabag the little kiddies who play that game it would break the game.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/my-exploit-your-lateral-thinking-his-emergent-gameplay/#comment-1803</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 06:55:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1742#comment-1803</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I dunno, the hacks who tried it at E3 seemed to like it well enough. For me, I like the idea enough that I&#039;m happy to pay to play with it for awhile. I hope you are wrong about it sucking but I&#039;ll see for myself :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dunno, the hacks who tried it at E3 seemed to like it well enough. For me, I like the idea enough that I&#8217;m happy to pay to play with it for awhile. I hope you are wrong about it sucking but I&#8217;ll see for myself <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Dblade</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/my-exploit-your-lateral-thinking-his-emergent-gameplay/#comment-1801</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dblade]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 03:27:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1742#comment-1801</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Scribblenauts is going to suck though. It&#039;s a DS game, chances are the actual puzzles and interactions will be simple, and the draw is seeing how you can stump the game by trying different words. Drawn to life was similar, the hook was drawing your character but the game was basic.  The DS is a great little system, but don&#039;t expect wonders.

As for the issue, no they don&#039;t want players metagaming encounters by using weakness in code. Usually there is very little you can actually do to deviate from most encounters as planned in an MMO. Usually thinking outside the box means exploiting weaknesses discovered more than being able to truly use different tactics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scribblenauts is going to suck though. It&#8217;s a DS game, chances are the actual puzzles and interactions will be simple, and the draw is seeing how you can stump the game by trying different words. Drawn to life was similar, the hook was drawing your character but the game was basic.  The DS is a great little system, but don&#8217;t expect wonders.</p>
<p>As for the issue, no they don&#8217;t want players metagaming encounters by using weakness in code. Usually there is very little you can actually do to deviate from most encounters as planned in an MMO. Usually thinking outside the box means exploiting weaknesses discovered more than being able to truly use different tactics.</p>
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		<title>By: We Fly Spitfires</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/my-exploit-your-lateral-thinking-his-emergent-gameplay/#comment-1798</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[We Fly Spitfires]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:25:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1742#comment-1798</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;And until then, I’m looking forwards to seeing if I can break Scribblenauts&quot;

I&#039;d be hugely impressed if it was hard to break... I can&#039;t help but be skeptical though.

Few words I&#039;m gonna try:

pygmy
marmot
lung
graviton
amoeba]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And until then, I’m looking forwards to seeing if I can break Scribblenauts&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;d be hugely impressed if it was hard to break&#8230; I can&#8217;t help but be skeptical though.</p>
<p>Few words I&#8217;m gonna try:</p>
<p>pygmy<br />
marmot<br />
lung<br />
graviton<br />
amoeba</p>
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		<title>By: Uzi</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/my-exploit-your-lateral-thinking-his-emergent-gameplay/#comment-1797</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Uzi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1742#comment-1797</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Where&#039;s the line drawn?

I think that our current tactic in XT feels very much like a bug. Tanking him right on top of a scrap pile should make it harder in my mind...but noooooo.

Likewise I remember my first ever &#039;internet research&#039; for a Boss giving me a hard time...it was the big statue guy in Uldaman. Our newbie 5 man group was in serious trouble. I printed out maps, I read everthing I could get my paws on. We kited him out of his room and back up stairs giving our rogue plenty of time to kill the adds and the rest of us impunity to nuke the boss. We were so proud! But it sounds allmost exactly what 5 guys got banned for on FlameL. Okay they took less people but we were getting serious ganked before that tactic...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where&#8217;s the line drawn?</p>
<p>I think that our current tactic in XT feels very much like a bug. Tanking him right on top of a scrap pile should make it harder in my mind&#8230;but noooooo.</p>
<p>Likewise I remember my first ever &#8216;internet research&#8217; for a Boss giving me a hard time&#8230;it was the big statue guy in Uldaman. Our newbie 5 man group was in serious trouble. I printed out maps, I read everthing I could get my paws on. We kited him out of his room and back up stairs giving our rogue plenty of time to kill the adds and the rest of us impunity to nuke the boss. We were so proud! But it sounds allmost exactly what 5 guys got banned for on FlameL. Okay they took less people but we were getting serious ganked before that tactic&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/my-exploit-your-lateral-thinking-his-emergent-gameplay/#comment-1794</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tesh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1742#comment-1794</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m impressed with how Wizards of the Coast handles things.  Magic the Gathering is built on breaking its own rules, and if a degenerate combo is found (despite devs&#039; best efforts), they just ban or restrict the cards that are the problem.  They own their mistakes, and sometimes even applaud players for breaking their game because it helps make it better.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m impressed with how Wizards of the Coast handles things.  Magic the Gathering is built on breaking its own rules, and if a degenerate combo is found (despite devs&#8217; best efforts), they just ban or restrict the cards that are the problem.  They own their mistakes, and sometimes even applaud players for breaking their game because it helps make it better.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Wiqd</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/my-exploit-your-lateral-thinking-his-emergent-gameplay/#comment-1793</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wiqd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1742#comment-1793</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The bans don&#039;t surprise me anymore. I remember back in the day when a guild was banned for using frost trap to split the Firelord from the giants in MC :/ I remember when a guild was banned for running a rogue down to a boss in MC stealthed, summoned him then the rogue aggroed the boss and it pulled to the entrance. Not only did the guild get banned, but thus came the changes to summoning (only in combat) and boss leashing.

Blizzard really is just all about control. You didn&#039;t see bans like this in EQ. Hell there&#039;s STILL some things you can exploit in EQ that were never fixed, but were well known. The EQ team simply released a fix for the more important exploits and went about their business.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The bans don&#8217;t surprise me anymore. I remember back in the day when a guild was banned for using frost trap to split the Firelord from the giants in MC :/ I remember when a guild was banned for running a rogue down to a boss in MC stealthed, summoned him then the rogue aggroed the boss and it pulled to the entrance. Not only did the guild get banned, but thus came the changes to summoning (only in combat) and boss leashing.</p>
<p>Blizzard really is just all about control. You didn&#8217;t see bans like this in EQ. Hell there&#8217;s STILL some things you can exploit in EQ that were never fixed, but were well known. The EQ team simply released a fix for the more important exploits and went about their business.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Jones who is blogless</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/my-exploit-your-lateral-thinking-his-emergent-gameplay/#comment-1792</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Simon Jones who is blogless]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1742#comment-1792</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The issue is more that the out of the box solution is fun for the first people to work it out. The it becomes the standard way you do things and more often than not? The actual out of the box solution is counter-intutive and serves to make the fight less fun.

The best example of this I can think of recently is in Left 4 Dead. In L4D, there&#039;s sections where you have to do something like flip a switch or wait for a plane to start or what have you. And while you do, huge hordes of zombies charge out at you. It should be a desperate, frantic fight for your life. But eventually, someone worked out if you all pile in the corner, rather in the various defensible spots that will eventually get overrun,  you mow down the zombies hordes fairly easily.  Which, y&#039;know, is fine from a gamist point of view. But isn&#039;t actually all that entertaining and serves to make the experience less enjoyable. But it&#039;s what everyone does now because it&#039;s the &#039;out of the box&#039; solution that worked. 

IT&#039;s fun for the first guy but it does result in everyone else having to do something irritating and stupid half the time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue is more that the out of the box solution is fun for the first people to work it out. The it becomes the standard way you do things and more often than not? The actual out of the box solution is counter-intutive and serves to make the fight less fun.</p>
<p>The best example of this I can think of recently is in Left 4 Dead. In L4D, there&#8217;s sections where you have to do something like flip a switch or wait for a plane to start or what have you. And while you do, huge hordes of zombies charge out at you. It should be a desperate, frantic fight for your life. But eventually, someone worked out if you all pile in the corner, rather in the various defensible spots that will eventually get overrun,  you mow down the zombies hordes fairly easily.  Which, y&#8217;know, is fine from a gamist point of view. But isn&#8217;t actually all that entertaining and serves to make the experience less enjoyable. But it&#8217;s what everyone does now because it&#8217;s the &#8216;out of the box&#8217; solution that worked. </p>
<p>IT&#8217;s fun for the first guy but it does result in everyone else having to do something irritating and stupid half the time.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/my-exploit-your-lateral-thinking-his-emergent-gameplay/#comment-1791</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:51:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1742#comment-1791</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I did tell you it was a type of potato!!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did tell you it was a type of potato!!!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Andy H</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/my-exploit-your-lateral-thinking-his-emergent-gameplay/#comment-1790</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andy H]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=1742#comment-1790</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;If I’m in a bar, I want to be able to pick up a chair and throw it at someone.&quot;

This is true.  I&#039;ve seen Spinks when we lose the pub quiz...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If I’m in a bar, I want to be able to pick up a chair and throw it at someone.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is true.  I&#8217;ve seen Spinks when we lose the pub quiz&#8230;</p>
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