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	<title>Comments on: Religion and quests that make you go hmmh</title>
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	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/10/06/religion-and-quests-that-make-you-go-hmmh/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
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		<title>By: A holiday, a holiday, the first one of the year! Best of 2009. &#171; Welcome to Spinksville!</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/10/06/religion-and-quests-that-make-you-go-hmmh/#comment-5236</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A holiday, a holiday, the first one of the year! Best of 2009. &#171; Welcome to Spinksville!]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 09:08:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2399#comment-5236</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Religion and quests that make you go Hmm (it turned out later that this particular quest actually was a tribute to someone connected to the dev team who died) [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Religion and quests that make you go Hmm (it turned out later that this particular quest actually was a tribute to someone connected to the dev team who died) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kassi</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/10/06/religion-and-quests-that-make-you-go-hmmh/#comment-3534</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kassi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 22:22:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2399#comment-3534</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Doing that quest to give last rites to the Tuskarr villagers really grated with me - I don&#039;t know what religion Tuskarrs are but I&#039;m fairly certain it doesn&#039;t involve &quot;the Light&quot;, so running around &quot;saving&quot; them seemed very wrong to me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doing that quest to give last rites to the Tuskarr villagers really grated with me &#8211; I don&#8217;t know what religion Tuskarrs are but I&#8217;m fairly certain it doesn&#8217;t involve &#8220;the Light&#8221;, so running around &#8220;saving&#8221; them seemed very wrong to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/10/06/religion-and-quests-that-make-you-go-hmmh/#comment-3532</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tesh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2399#comment-3532</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting inasmuch as it&#039;s treated with respect and thoughfulness.  If it&#039;s just another poor caricature or lampooning of religion, it&#039;s annoying and banal.  Sadly, the latter is far too common.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting inasmuch as it&#8217;s treated with respect and thoughfulness.  If it&#8217;s just another poor caricature or lampooning of religion, it&#8217;s annoying and banal.  Sadly, the latter is far too common.</p>
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		<title>By: Rohan</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/10/06/religion-and-quests-that-make-you-go-hmmh/#comment-3527</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rohan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 07:08:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2399#comment-3527</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve been thinking about this post a bit more, and I believe that you are making a theological mistake.  You are conflating the Naaru with the omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient God of the Judeo-Christian tradition.  The Naaru are not all-knowing or all-powerful.  They&#039;ve been captured and enslaved (M&#039;uru) and have been turned to the dark side and defeated in combat by mortals.

To flip the question on it&#039;s head, why didn&#039;t &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; save Bridenbrand?  At this point in the game, you are one of the most powerful champions in the world.  You&#039;ve defeated Onyxia, Nefarian, an old god in C&#039;Thun, and even Illidan, who the Naaru were fighting against.  And yet, despite your power, you cannot save Bridenbrand because you are &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; that powerful, or you were not there when your aid could have been of use.  Your power, vast as it is, has limits.  

The Naaru are similar beings, and have never been presented as more than that.  Their power may be more than yours, but it is still bounded.

Thus, it is unfair to complain about what they could have or have not done.  If you had been present at the battle where Bridenbrand was infected, maybe you could have prevented it. Your character is certainly powerful enough.  But there is a difference between an omnipotent being and a being who&#039;s power is bounded.  And it is unfair to complain that a limited being does not act like an omnipotent one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been thinking about this post a bit more, and I believe that you are making a theological mistake.  You are conflating the Naaru with the omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient God of the Judeo-Christian tradition.  The Naaru are not all-knowing or all-powerful.  They&#8217;ve been captured and enslaved (M&#8217;uru) and have been turned to the dark side and defeated in combat by mortals.</p>
<p>To flip the question on it&#8217;s head, why didn&#8217;t <i>you</i> save Bridenbrand?  At this point in the game, you are one of the most powerful champions in the world.  You&#8217;ve defeated Onyxia, Nefarian, an old god in C&#8217;Thun, and even Illidan, who the Naaru were fighting against.  And yet, despite your power, you cannot save Bridenbrand because you are <i>not</i> that powerful, or you were not there when your aid could have been of use.  Your power, vast as it is, has limits.  </p>
<p>The Naaru are similar beings, and have never been presented as more than that.  Their power may be more than yours, but it is still bounded.</p>
<p>Thus, it is unfair to complain about what they could have or have not done.  If you had been present at the battle where Bridenbrand was infected, maybe you could have prevented it. Your character is certainly powerful enough.  But there is a difference between an omnipotent being and a being who&#8217;s power is bounded.  And it is unfair to complain that a limited being does not act like an omnipotent one.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/10/06/religion-and-quests-that-make-you-go-hmmh/#comment-3525</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 03:01:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2399#comment-3525</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s really interesting, thanks for posting.

As an aside, I&#039;m Jewish (albeit not v religious these days) so I wasn&#039;t brought up in a religion that either believes that everyone is damned and  needs to be saved, or that only people of the same faith as me get a pass into heaven (as far as it goes, we believe people will be judged on their deeds not their beliefs). I think this is where the disconnect comes.

But it is still interesting to toy with some of these ideas in a game.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s really interesting, thanks for posting.</p>
<p>As an aside, I&#8217;m Jewish (albeit not v religious these days) so I wasn&#8217;t brought up in a religion that either believes that everyone is damned and  needs to be saved, or that only people of the same faith as me get a pass into heaven (as far as it goes, we believe people will be judged on their deeds not their beliefs). I think this is where the disconnect comes.</p>
<p>But it is still interesting to toy with some of these ideas in a game.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/10/06/religion-and-quests-that-make-you-go-hmmh/#comment-3524</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 02:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2399#comment-3524</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pen and paper games had similar issues. RL religion is a fascinating and powerful source of imagery, folklore and myth but if you actually use it then you risk offending people.  They tended to pick the safer route (apart from edgier games or French ones -- in In Nomine they had some fun mocking the catholic church.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pen and paper games had similar issues. RL religion is a fascinating and powerful source of imagery, folklore and myth but if you actually use it then you risk offending people.  They tended to pick the safer route (apart from edgier games or French ones &#8212; in In Nomine they had some fun mocking the catholic church.)</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/10/06/religion-and-quests-that-make-you-go-hmmh/#comment-3523</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 02:54:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2399#comment-3523</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not 100% sure that he was a paladin and not a warrior actually. Don&#039;t really know enough about the argent crusade but it used to be part of the lore that paladins never got zombified by the plague (hence why no forsaken paladins). They might have gone soft on that in Wrath though, I know I&#039;ve seen undead crusaders who healed in Icecrown,

And for the rest. before she died she was a human native of lordaeron -- so human and alliance!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not 100% sure that he was a paladin and not a warrior actually. Don&#8217;t really know enough about the argent crusade but it used to be part of the lore that paladins never got zombified by the plague (hence why no forsaken paladins). They might have gone soft on that in Wrath though, I know I&#8217;ve seen undead crusaders who healed in Icecrown,</p>
<p>And for the rest. before she died she was a human native of lordaeron &#8212; so human and alliance!</p>
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		<title>By: Dblade</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/10/06/religion-and-quests-that-make-you-go-hmmh/#comment-3522</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dblade]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 01:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2399#comment-3522</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My comment spinks is too large for a comment box, can go to http://mmomisanthrope.wordpress.com/2009/10/07/theology-and-mmos/ if you like to read it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My comment spinks is too large for a comment box, can go to <a href="http://mmomisanthrope.wordpress.com/2009/10/07/theology-and-mmos/" rel="nofollow">http://mmomisanthrope.wordpress.com/2009/10/07/theology-and-mmos/</a> if you like to read it.</p>
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		<title>By: Theology and MMO&#8217;s &#171; Loving the game and hating people at the same time</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/10/06/religion-and-quests-that-make-you-go-hmmh/#comment-3521</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Theology and MMO&#8217;s &#171; Loving the game and hating people at the same time]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 01:52:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2399#comment-3521</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] and&#160;MMO&#8217;s  Spinks wrote of her feelings about a quest with some religious significance here. My thoughts on it are probably more than a comment could reply, so I&#8217;ll post them [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and&nbsp;MMO&#8217;s  Spinks wrote of her feelings about a quest with some religious significance here. My thoughts on it are probably more than a comment could reply, so I&#8217;ll post them [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dblade</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/10/06/religion-and-quests-that-make-you-go-hmmh/#comment-3520</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dblade]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 01:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2399#comment-3520</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[also please keep in mind that the white person analogy is just that, an analogy. It was the closest offhand I could think of to contrast to the idea of an &quot;elect.&quot; TBH religious theology is often arcane and hard to analogize, no offense.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>also please keep in mind that the white person analogy is just that, an analogy. It was the closest offhand I could think of to contrast to the idea of an &#8220;elect.&#8221; TBH religious theology is often arcane and hard to analogize, no offense.</p>
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