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	<title>Comments on: Icecrown: The self-nerfing raid</title>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/icecrown-the-self-nerfing-raid/#comment-4319</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:22:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2767#comment-4319</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t really care about the unwashed hordes, but of course I&#039;d like raid content that is exactly pitched to be a fun challenge for my raid :) We&#039;ve seen a lot of iterations in Wrath of schemes to make the same content (with a few difficulty sliders) work for both the hardcore and more casual raiders. I guess it&#039;s been fairly successful? Hard to really say. The limited attempts is a fairly clear statement that they really don&#039;t want people raiding 5+ nights a week.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t really care about the unwashed hordes, but of course I&#8217;d like raid content that is exactly pitched to be a fun challenge for my raid <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  We&#8217;ve seen a lot of iterations in Wrath of schemes to make the same content (with a few difficulty sliders) work for both the hardcore and more casual raiders. I guess it&#8217;s been fairly successful? Hard to really say. The limited attempts is a fairly clear statement that they really don&#8217;t want people raiding 5+ nights a week.</p>
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		<title>By: Stabs</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/icecrown-the-self-nerfing-raid/#comment-4303</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stabs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2767#comment-4303</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would guess the non-hard mode difficulty will be attemptable by a geared and buffed raid with everyone focussed. (ie not super-elite difficulty). Right from the start.

They have given up on the idea that basic game content should be restricted to 0.1% of their players and I&#039;m sure this new philosophy will apply to non-hard modes.

It&#039;s the old conundrum though. Everyone wants content just hard enough that they and their guildies can beat it while it still gates the vast umwashed hordes who are less adept. If you&#039;re one of the ones gated it&#039;s ridiculously elitist but as soon as you get through then it&#039;s equally ridiculous to let the undeserving rabble have the same loot and bragging rights.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would guess the non-hard mode difficulty will be attemptable by a geared and buffed raid with everyone focussed. (ie not super-elite difficulty). Right from the start.</p>
<p>They have given up on the idea that basic game content should be restricted to 0.1% of their players and I&#8217;m sure this new philosophy will apply to non-hard modes.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the old conundrum though. Everyone wants content just hard enough that they and their guildies can beat it while it still gates the vast umwashed hordes who are less adept. If you&#8217;re one of the ones gated it&#8217;s ridiculously elitist but as soon as you get through then it&#8217;s equally ridiculous to let the undeserving rabble have the same loot and bragging rights.</p>
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		<title>By: Wrath Raiders are Guinea Pigs &#124; Tank &#39;n&#39; Tree</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/icecrown-the-self-nerfing-raid/#comment-4302</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wrath Raiders are Guinea Pigs &#124; Tank &#39;n&#39; Tree]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2767#comment-4302</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] others have already mentioned, what we have here is a self nerfing raid. Buffs to players will increase, [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] others have already mentioned, what we have here is a self nerfing raid. Buffs to players will increase, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: M</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/icecrown-the-self-nerfing-raid/#comment-4301</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2767#comment-4301</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Artificial gating is better than ridiculous farming time sinks.  IT means that the people aren&#039;t pressured into spending hours doing mindless trash farming, rep grinding, etc....

The autonerf is probably ok as well as long as it is a small effect (say 1% a week, not 5%).

Again limited attempts mean that people who want to raid x amount a week don&#039;t get pushed into staying for way more attempts due to guild pressure (yes its a big problem for many people).

I only hope that everything is tuned hard enough.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Artificial gating is better than ridiculous farming time sinks.  IT means that the people aren&#8217;t pressured into spending hours doing mindless trash farming, rep grinding, etc&#8230;.</p>
<p>The autonerf is probably ok as well as long as it is a small effect (say 1% a week, not 5%).</p>
<p>Again limited attempts mean that people who want to raid x amount a week don&#8217;t get pushed into staying for way more attempts due to guild pressure (yes its a big problem for many people).</p>
<p>I only hope that everything is tuned hard enough.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Jones who is blogless</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/icecrown-the-self-nerfing-raid/#comment-4300</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Simon Jones who is blogless]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:27:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2767#comment-4300</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think a lot of this is just putting out in the open things that used to be behind the scenes in the past. Rather than slowing progression by &#039;artificial&#039; gating, like farming resist gear, they just overtly gate the instance and limit tries. Rather than gradually nerfing it, they stick the nerf mechanic front and center. 

Would people be complaining less if rather than gating, they&#039;d have made you farm Frozen Saronite from inside the instance to make Frost Resist gear using rep farmed patterns to get past the boss Froesty the Snowman who does raid wide frost damage?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a lot of this is just putting out in the open things that used to be behind the scenes in the past. Rather than slowing progression by &#8216;artificial&#8217; gating, like farming resist gear, they just overtly gate the instance and limit tries. Rather than gradually nerfing it, they stick the nerf mechanic front and center. </p>
<p>Would people be complaining less if rather than gating, they&#8217;d have made you farm Frozen Saronite from inside the instance to make Frost Resist gear using rep farmed patterns to get past the boss Froesty the Snowman who does raid wide frost damage?</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/icecrown-the-self-nerfing-raid/#comment-4298</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:10:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2767#comment-4298</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is pretty much what they&#039;ve been doing but the thing is, the raids get easier anyway because people gear up and learn the fights. I find it awkward that they feel they need to ease the learning curve even more than the gameplay would naturally flow (and I&#039;m sure it&#039;s entirely because they want it bastard hard for the hardcore guys who rip through the bosses in the first week.)

I&#039;m going to be very curious to see the initial tuning. Because if it&#039;s really that hard, it might not even be worth the non hardcore trying it for a few weeks. I hope they don&#039;t do that though.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is pretty much what they&#8217;ve been doing but the thing is, the raids get easier anyway because people gear up and learn the fights. I find it awkward that they feel they need to ease the learning curve even more than the gameplay would naturally flow (and I&#8217;m sure it&#8217;s entirely because they want it bastard hard for the hardcore guys who rip through the bosses in the first week.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m going to be very curious to see the initial tuning. Because if it&#8217;s really that hard, it might not even be worth the non hardcore trying it for a few weeks. I hope they don&#8217;t do that though.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/icecrown-the-self-nerfing-raid/#comment-4297</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:07:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2767#comment-4297</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sadly, I think they probably are pretty well in touch with how the vast majority of people play the game. I agree with you, but I bet most people either watch the videos/read strategies or have a raid leader who does on their first time into the instance. 

This is a &lt;a href=&quot;http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t81612-icecrown_citadel_gating_system/#post1464637&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;particularly tragic quote&lt;/a&gt; I found on EJ on the subject:

&lt;i&gt;Between all of the boss kill videos available, all the information posted on EJ and other related forums, and the PTR being open to anyone who wants it, &quot;getting your feet wet&quot; should be a thing of the past. No one should be going into a fight on the live realms without knowing exactly what to expect.&lt;/i&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sadly, I think they probably are pretty well in touch with how the vast majority of people play the game. I agree with you, but I bet most people either watch the videos/read strategies or have a raid leader who does on their first time into the instance. </p>
<p>This is a <a href="http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t81612-icecrown_citadel_gating_system/#post1464637" rel="nofollow">particularly tragic quote</a> I found on EJ on the subject:</p>
<p><i>Between all of the boss kill videos available, all the information posted on EJ and other related forums, and the PTR being open to anyone who wants it, &#8220;getting your feet wet&#8221; should be a thing of the past. No one should be going into a fight on the live realms without knowing exactly what to expect.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Seri sez: Raid progression in 3.3 &#8212; The shot heard &#8217;round the world. &#171; World of Snarkcraft</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/icecrown-the-self-nerfing-raid/#comment-4296</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seri sez: Raid progression in 3.3 &#8212; The shot heard &#8217;round the world. &#171; World of Snarkcraft]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2767#comment-4296</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Icecrown: The self-nerfing raid. &#8211; Welcome to Spinksville [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Icecrown: The self-nerfing raid. &#8211; Welcome to Spinksville [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JD</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/icecrown-the-self-nerfing-raid/#comment-4295</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2767#comment-4295</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think this is a pretty decent plan for rolling out a new raid. They specifically said several weeks before the rollout of more bosses, and &quot;another period of time&quot; for the others after that. I&#039;m looking at my calendar and trying to map this out roughly. I&#039;m guessing the patch will hit either December 1st or December 8th (I&#039;m guessing the 8th), which means the Plagueworks will open around December 21st or December 28th (this is why I guess the 8th for 3.3 - so they don&#039;t open extra bosses right before Christmas).

Crimson Hall would then be around January 18th and Frostwing Hall around February 8th. Even if this is off by a couple weeks, you can roughly guess we won&#039;t be fighting the lich king until early to mid February, and only after he&#039;s been defeated will the heroic versions become available. 

I like this for several reasons - sure the top guilds will down each wing on their respective patch day, but it won&#039;t matter that much because it is just a wing. But once the heroic unlocks they&#039;ll be able to go from defeating normal mode Arthas to heroic Arthas in the same week, that&#039;s where the rush will be and they can get their bragging rights.

I also like that for the more casual raiders it really gives us time to focus on and learn 3-4 encounters over a few raid lockouts and gear ourselves up for the harder wings. By the time a new wing becomes available hopefully we&#039;ll have more guild members familiar with the existing wing so we don&#039;t need to explain everything. 

This new system should work out well for a lot of guilds - I know due to the limited attempts I&#039;ll be much more selective of who I raid with. Right now we&#039;ve carried some seriously undergeared people through ToC 10 and this mechanic really gives us a built-in excuse to exclude them. Sure it might sound mean, but when you&#039;re dealing with people now who expect to hit 80 and see ToC 10 the same day it gets old.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is a pretty decent plan for rolling out a new raid. They specifically said several weeks before the rollout of more bosses, and &#8220;another period of time&#8221; for the others after that. I&#8217;m looking at my calendar and trying to map this out roughly. I&#8217;m guessing the patch will hit either December 1st or December 8th (I&#8217;m guessing the 8th), which means the Plagueworks will open around December 21st or December 28th (this is why I guess the 8th for 3.3 &#8211; so they don&#8217;t open extra bosses right before Christmas).</p>
<p>Crimson Hall would then be around January 18th and Frostwing Hall around February 8th. Even if this is off by a couple weeks, you can roughly guess we won&#8217;t be fighting the lich king until early to mid February, and only after he&#8217;s been defeated will the heroic versions become available. </p>
<p>I like this for several reasons &#8211; sure the top guilds will down each wing on their respective patch day, but it won&#8217;t matter that much because it is just a wing. But once the heroic unlocks they&#8217;ll be able to go from defeating normal mode Arthas to heroic Arthas in the same week, that&#8217;s where the rush will be and they can get their bragging rights.</p>
<p>I also like that for the more casual raiders it really gives us time to focus on and learn 3-4 encounters over a few raid lockouts and gear ourselves up for the harder wings. By the time a new wing becomes available hopefully we&#8217;ll have more guild members familiar with the existing wing so we don&#8217;t need to explain everything. </p>
<p>This new system should work out well for a lot of guilds &#8211; I know due to the limited attempts I&#8217;ll be much more selective of who I raid with. Right now we&#8217;ve carried some seriously undergeared people through ToC 10 and this mechanic really gives us a built-in excuse to exclude them. Sure it might sound mean, but when you&#8217;re dealing with people now who expect to hit 80 and see ToC 10 the same day it gets old.</p>
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		<title>By: Are we all lying hypocrites ? &#171; Screaming monkeys</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/icecrown-the-self-nerfing-raid/#comment-4294</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Are we all lying hypocrites ? &#171; Screaming monkeys]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=2767#comment-4294</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] a buff that will increase over time to make the raid easier and more accessible. Both Larìsa and Spinks have written excellent posts on the [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a buff that will increase over time to make the raid easier and more accessible. Both Larìsa and Spinks have written excellent posts on the [...]</p>
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