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	<title>Comments on: General trends, the core tank toolset, and is survival more fun than threat?</title>
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	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/general-trends-the-core-tank-toolset-and-is-survival-more-fun-than-threat/</link>
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		<title>By: Gravity</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/general-trends-the-core-tank-toolset-and-is-survival-more-fun-than-threat/#comment-7172</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gravity]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Apr 2010 06:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=3557#comment-7172</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have no idea how you manage to write so much content! Thanks for reading my post about mobility. I&#039;m still a little behind in reading your blog ;).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have no idea how you manage to write so much content! Thanks for reading my post about mobility. I&#8217;m still a little behind in reading your blog <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> .</p>
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		<title>By: Akasza</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/general-trends-the-core-tank-toolset-and-is-survival-more-fun-than-threat/#comment-7090</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Akasza]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 05:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=3557#comment-7090</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;This has always been an issue for priests, since originally the hybrids got more utility to make up for priests having better healing.&quot; 

Really? 
Fortitude was always a greatly wanted buff, so much they made it in a scroll form for those poor souls who can&#039;t find a priest. 
In TBC you&#039;d usually get at least one priest spec into 23/38 for improved Divine Spirit which was a great buff as well (nerfed in WotLK). 

And then you had famous Razuvious fight in vanilla, coming back in Naxx25 at 80. 

Oh, and the fear ward issue. 

And the TBC era of cc with shackle. 

Actually the most funny or sad part, depending how do you look at it, is I see it all the time &quot;LF healer for X, shaman / priest preferred&quot;. Ok, I get it, Shamans = Bloodlust, but why Priest and what&#039;s wrong with Druid or Paladin healers? Why everyone wants only Priests and Shamans?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This has always been an issue for priests, since originally the hybrids got more utility to make up for priests having better healing.&#8221; </p>
<p>Really?<br />
Fortitude was always a greatly wanted buff, so much they made it in a scroll form for those poor souls who can&#8217;t find a priest.<br />
In TBC you&#8217;d usually get at least one priest spec into 23/38 for improved Divine Spirit which was a great buff as well (nerfed in WotLK). </p>
<p>And then you had famous Razuvious fight in vanilla, coming back in Naxx25 at 80. </p>
<p>Oh, and the fear ward issue. </p>
<p>And the TBC era of cc with shackle. </p>
<p>Actually the most funny or sad part, depending how do you look at it, is I see it all the time &#8220;LF healer for X, shaman / priest preferred&#8221;. Ok, I get it, Shamans = Bloodlust, but why Priest and what&#8217;s wrong with Druid or Paladin healers? Why everyone wants only Priests and Shamans?</p>
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		<title>By: Kobeathris</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/general-trends-the-core-tank-toolset-and-is-survival-more-fun-than-threat/#comment-7082</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kobeathris]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=3557#comment-7082</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Movement can be fun, but like everything else, it depends how it is done. I think Putricide is fun to tank, because positioning is very important, and in Phase 3, you have good feedback on what you should be doing. Heigan, on the other hand, is terrible. The movement is pointless, and platformy. Personally, I would like to see more fights where movement and positioning are important not because &quot;If you don&#039;t do this right, you wipe&quot;, but because it is tactically advantageous to move and position things in certain ways. The nice thing about that type of fight is that it lends itself more to a best practice than just one right answer. Take Anub&#039;Arak as another example. There are multiple right ways to handle the adds and the ice, and you can chose to use whichever strategy works best for your raid.

I am actually looking forward to the healing changes, because I think gearing for survivability can be interesting if it actually has an impact on how healers heal the tank. Right now, it doesn&#039;t really. A well geared tank and an undergeared tank will basically be healed in the same way, just one will be more likely to die due to random factors than the other.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Movement can be fun, but like everything else, it depends how it is done. I think Putricide is fun to tank, because positioning is very important, and in Phase 3, you have good feedback on what you should be doing. Heigan, on the other hand, is terrible. The movement is pointless, and platformy. Personally, I would like to see more fights where movement and positioning are important not because &#8220;If you don&#8217;t do this right, you wipe&#8221;, but because it is tactically advantageous to move and position things in certain ways. The nice thing about that type of fight is that it lends itself more to a best practice than just one right answer. Take Anub&#8217;Arak as another example. There are multiple right ways to handle the adds and the ice, and you can chose to use whichever strategy works best for your raid.</p>
<p>I am actually looking forward to the healing changes, because I think gearing for survivability can be interesting if it actually has an impact on how healers heal the tank. Right now, it doesn&#8217;t really. A well geared tank and an undergeared tank will basically be healed in the same way, just one will be more likely to die due to random factors than the other.</p>
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		<title>By: Uzi</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/general-trends-the-core-tank-toolset-and-is-survival-more-fun-than-threat/#comment-7080</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Uzi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=3557#comment-7080</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Juries out on how this will all tie together. As with you I&#039;d like to feel like a synergystic team, lots of movement and clever stuff going on. What we&#039;ve seen is the banner headlines about whats changing but what we want is the feel of how it will play. 

Survival via movement/stance dancing perhaps for tanks rather than just stacking stam/armour etc.

I personaly love that tanks have different flavours and that even two tanks tanks of the same class can have widley different gearings and play styles...I rather hope that doesnt go away...I was rather hoping mastery might add more of a special snowflake feel and be balanced so that there isnt just one EJ &#039;minmax&#039; answer. I suspect I&#039;ll be disapointed there at least.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Juries out on how this will all tie together. As with you I&#8217;d like to feel like a synergystic team, lots of movement and clever stuff going on. What we&#8217;ve seen is the banner headlines about whats changing but what we want is the feel of how it will play. </p>
<p>Survival via movement/stance dancing perhaps for tanks rather than just stacking stam/armour etc.</p>
<p>I personaly love that tanks have different flavours and that even two tanks tanks of the same class can have widley different gearings and play styles&#8230;I rather hope that doesnt go away&#8230;I was rather hoping mastery might add more of a special snowflake feel and be balanced so that there isnt just one EJ &#8216;minmax&#8217; answer. I suspect I&#8217;ll be disapointed there at least.</p>
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		<title>By: Ele</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/general-trends-the-core-tank-toolset-and-is-survival-more-fun-than-threat/#comment-7079</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ele]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=3557#comment-7079</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Survival based tanking is a nice concept, but it hasn&#039;t worked very well in practice. Shield Block may be a more interesting ability for Warriors than it used to be, but Holy Shield is still something I use automatically, because there&#039;s little else to do with that time. It&#039;ll be interesting to see what happens to that.

Shield Wall and similar cooldowns are in an interesting middle ground. Reducing the original cooldown of 30 minutes is a good thing - same as for Combat Resses, it made it an ability yuou could use instead of forever pondering whether you might need it on the next boss. 2-5 minute cooldowns give you the ability a couple of times per fight, and I suppose there is some glee to be had in &quot;Hah, try and kill me now!&quot;. However, it&#039;s hardly going to keep you entertained the whole fight long.

Abilities like Demo Shout and Thunderclap aren&#039;t amazingly interesting. They&#039;re very important, but you really don&#039;t see the impact. I was looking at Blood Princes the other day, who have a staggering damage range - I clocked attacks anywhere between 16 and 26k. Now, that will include when Demo Shout was up or not - but frankly, just looking at the incoming damage, it&#039;s hard to tell unless you get an attack from the extreme end. The same with Thunderclap - I honestly would not notice the lack thereof without checking carefully through combatlogs. It is made worse by the fact that Paladins apply both abilities without any thought at all. Druids and DKs maintain the melee de-haste without doing much out of the ordinary. There&#039;s just no real engagement there.

Threat is a slightly different game - just about every ability you&#039;re using during most fights is threat related. Hence, a fight built around threat engages you for the whole fight. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one threat based encounter this expansion, and that&#039;s a hardmode, and its only half the fight - Lady Deathwhisper. Virtually every other boss is tauntable (which on a fight like, say, Gormok is really necessary, I&#039;ll grant), and tank threat is laughably better than DPS anyway.

Movement, as you mention, is also interesting, because it&#039;s a constant thread to keep track of throughout the fight. 

I honestly cannot see where the interest is associated with Survivability. Half of it comes down to filling your gem sockets with Solid gems like there&#039;s no tomorrow (which I find irritatingly mindless, although I&#039;m not sure mindlessly stacking strength, spell power, dodge, or whatever is any more exciting), and the rest involves bitching that class X has a better cooldown than you do (yes, even Paladins moan about that!)


I think the best fights though are those that have a large number of different things to keep track of, whatever those threads are. Flame Leviathon (with 3-4 towers), Mimiron, Frwya, Yogg Saron (notice how many awesome fighs Ulduar had!); (notice how many Trial didn&#039;t!); Professor Putricide, Valithria and the Lich King - they all force you to be aware of a huge number of different things going on. You&#039;re really, really engaged in the fight, because otherwise you wipe. A popularly reviled fight (Northrend Beasts springs to mind, especially heroic), doesn&#039;t really engage the mind like this. Saurfang and lanathel also lend themselves.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Survival based tanking is a nice concept, but it hasn&#8217;t worked very well in practice. Shield Block may be a more interesting ability for Warriors than it used to be, but Holy Shield is still something I use automatically, because there&#8217;s little else to do with that time. It&#8217;ll be interesting to see what happens to that.</p>
<p>Shield Wall and similar cooldowns are in an interesting middle ground. Reducing the original cooldown of 30 minutes is a good thing &#8211; same as for Combat Resses, it made it an ability yuou could use instead of forever pondering whether you might need it on the next boss. 2-5 minute cooldowns give you the ability a couple of times per fight, and I suppose there is some glee to be had in &#8220;Hah, try and kill me now!&#8221;. However, it&#8217;s hardly going to keep you entertained the whole fight long.</p>
<p>Abilities like Demo Shout and Thunderclap aren&#8217;t amazingly interesting. They&#8217;re very important, but you really don&#8217;t see the impact. I was looking at Blood Princes the other day, who have a staggering damage range &#8211; I clocked attacks anywhere between 16 and 26k. Now, that will include when Demo Shout was up or not &#8211; but frankly, just looking at the incoming damage, it&#8217;s hard to tell unless you get an attack from the extreme end. The same with Thunderclap &#8211; I honestly would not notice the lack thereof without checking carefully through combatlogs. It is made worse by the fact that Paladins apply both abilities without any thought at all. Druids and DKs maintain the melee de-haste without doing much out of the ordinary. There&#8217;s just no real engagement there.</p>
<p>Threat is a slightly different game &#8211; just about every ability you&#8217;re using during most fights is threat related. Hence, a fight built around threat engages you for the whole fight. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one threat based encounter this expansion, and that&#8217;s a hardmode, and its only half the fight &#8211; Lady Deathwhisper. Virtually every other boss is tauntable (which on a fight like, say, Gormok is really necessary, I&#8217;ll grant), and tank threat is laughably better than DPS anyway.</p>
<p>Movement, as you mention, is also interesting, because it&#8217;s a constant thread to keep track of throughout the fight. </p>
<p>I honestly cannot see where the interest is associated with Survivability. Half of it comes down to filling your gem sockets with Solid gems like there&#8217;s no tomorrow (which I find irritatingly mindless, although I&#8217;m not sure mindlessly stacking strength, spell power, dodge, or whatever is any more exciting), and the rest involves bitching that class X has a better cooldown than you do (yes, even Paladins moan about that!)</p>
<p>I think the best fights though are those that have a large number of different things to keep track of, whatever those threads are. Flame Leviathon (with 3-4 towers), Mimiron, Frwya, Yogg Saron (notice how many awesome fighs Ulduar had!); (notice how many Trial didn&#8217;t!); Professor Putricide, Valithria and the Lich King &#8211; they all force you to be aware of a huge number of different things going on. You&#8217;re really, really engaged in the fight, because otherwise you wipe. A popularly reviled fight (Northrend Beasts springs to mind, especially heroic), doesn&#8217;t really engage the mind like this. Saurfang and lanathel also lend themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Usiel</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/general-trends-the-core-tank-toolset-and-is-survival-more-fun-than-threat/#comment-7078</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Usiel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:23:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=3557#comment-7078</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All I remember is that they removed soul shards in the exiting way. You will have a maximum of three Soul Shards pre-fight, that can be used to grant an additional effect on existing spells. Turn Soulfire into an instant cast with increased power, for instance. 
The new Spell included a Shadowfire Spell, a way to transfer demons power into the warlock and a crit buff on a friendly target, that increases the warlocks damage in return.

The rest was some house keeping on Curses to allow different combination etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All I remember is that they removed soul shards in the exiting way. You will have a maximum of three Soul Shards pre-fight, that can be used to grant an additional effect on existing spells. Turn Soulfire into an instant cast with increased power, for instance.<br />
The new Spell included a Shadowfire Spell, a way to transfer demons power into the warlock and a crit buff on a friendly target, that increases the warlocks damage in return.</p>
<p>The rest was some house keeping on Curses to allow different combination etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Longasc</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/general-trends-the-core-tank-toolset-and-is-survival-more-fun-than-threat/#comment-7074</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Longasc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=3557#comment-7074</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just don&#039;t forget to post about Warlock changes as well. Former WoW players are for sure interested what happens to their favorite classes as well. :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just don&#8217;t forget to post about Warlock changes as well. Former WoW players are for sure interested what happens to their favorite classes as well. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: dwism</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/general-trends-the-core-tank-toolset-and-is-survival-more-fun-than-threat/#comment-7072</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dwism]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Apr 2010 07:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=3557#comment-7072</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I really like your ideas for surv vs threat. As a DK i won&#039;t miss fighting for aggro, but would love to see more.. well like you said &quot;situational awareness and teamwork&quot;.

Also note that Tanks in generel will do way more damage than before. The offtank role may become &quot;switch stance and you will do fine dps&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like your ideas for surv vs threat. As a DK i won&#8217;t miss fighting for aggro, but would love to see more.. well like you said &#8220;situational awareness and teamwork&#8221;.</p>
<p>Also note that Tanks in generel will do way more damage than before. The offtank role may become &#8220;switch stance and you will do fine dps&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Usiel</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/general-trends-the-core-tank-toolset-and-is-survival-more-fun-than-threat/#comment-7071</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Usiel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Apr 2010 07:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=3557#comment-7071</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks a lot, I did not expect a whole Post as an answer, but that should work as well.

Personally I did understood some aggro related comments the other way around, but that just subject of how you read them I guess.

I share your opinion about the Tank Tool Box, although I am not fully convinced, that we should have the same abilities. Why having different classes then? Besides they always said, they never wanted to copy classes. When Paladins asked for last stand, they received ardent defender. Looks like they are giving up that idea.

By the way, I never been really good at movement while tanking, so I prefer the survivability game.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks a lot, I did not expect a whole Post as an answer, but that should work as well.</p>
<p>Personally I did understood some aggro related comments the other way around, but that just subject of how you read them I guess.</p>
<p>I share your opinion about the Tank Tool Box, although I am not fully convinced, that we should have the same abilities. Why having different classes then? Besides they always said, they never wanted to copy classes. When Paladins asked for last stand, they received ardent defender. Looks like they are giving up that idea.</p>
<p>By the way, I never been really good at movement while tanking, so I prefer the survivability game.</p>
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