Thought of the Day: 10 and 25 man versions of the same raid instance

Last night was a very exciting one for our raid. For the first time, we were standing in front of the Frozen Throne, looking at the end boss of the expansion. Arthas is the fight we’ve been aiming for ever since we first nervously zoned into Naxxramas all those months ago. Reaching this point (and eventually killing him) has been our raid’s mission statement – as much as it has one.

And yet. I felt curiously empty looking around the raid and seeing how many people were displaying their Kingslayer title, to show that they’d already killed him in a 10 man raid. How exciting could this moment possibly have been for them?

I do increasingly feel like an outsider because I don’t have that 10 man fixed group in which I can learn fights at the same time as everyone else. I used to enjoy progression fights, but now it is often listening to other people tell us what tactics they used in their 10 mans, whining (on our tank channel!!!) that us newbies to the fight don’t learn fast enough, and smugly showing off their raid achievements that we don’t share. That wasn’t really what I wanted from being in a raid group. I thought we’d all be in it together.

It’s food for thought.

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15 thoughts on “Thought of the Day: 10 and 25 man versions of the same raid instance

  1. I suspect that’s part of the reason they’re sharing a lockout next time around. I doubt blizzard thinks it’s awesome that half your raid are already kingslayers before your guild reaches Arthas either.

  2. Guess how encouraging it is for someone who is trying to enter the raiding at this point? Or even at an earlier point, when the main cores of raiding guilds had formed, even?

    Know the feeling.

    C out

  3. This is a bit how 10 man raiding felt during Naxx. Naxx 25 was so much easier and the loot so much more powerful that people from our fairly small raiding team who weren’t farming themselve out to 25 teams for whatever reason felt a little disheartened when people with their KT loot came back and started telling us exactly how to do things.

    This is a lot of why I’m in favour of the shared loot and lock out approach. Because otherwise, one of the raids is going to feel like an afterthought to the other.

  4. It’s sad when 10-man raiders can’t step out of their own little box and realize that some players are doing the encounter for the first time and deserve to have their learning curve just like anyone else.

    It’s about common courtesy and respect. Same thing about the rest as well by the way. Even if your guildies have done it before, i hope they’re decent enough to shut up during the rp and cinematics in your 25 man kill so you can enjoy it the way they did a while ago.

  5. I wrote, erased, re-did, erased and dithered about replying to this.

    I think Larisa is correct. It is about courtesy and respect or rather the lack of it shown in last nights raid by some people.

    I personaly removed my Kingslayer title pre raid and tried to keep my comments to non-spolier type (ie answering technical healing questions and explaining mechanics people had read about but not understood)as I didnt want to ruin it for others. Other people did not. And I may have gone to far, not painting myself whiter than white. Heck reading tactics can do that and I sometimes whish they werent out there. In any case even though I wasnt exposed to any tank channel comments some of the shine was removed for me as well and I was initialy thrilled by the prospect of the bigger stage despite knowing the fight from 10 man.

    In light of this and human nature I’ve now accepted the changes Blizz have announced to 10/25 raid locks as being a good idea. As Rhii and Simon have said….barring a few ‘clone army’ types at least people will come to raids they’ve seen before on different characters/specs in Cata. I would love if people could all take the attitude of ‘Hey done it in 10 man, but now we’re going Bigtime. Its like taking a show to the West End. Bigger Cast. Different challenges for all its the same plot’. Or you know….done it on Broadway but now we’re taking it small and intimate where each actor needs to be on their game and not hoping to be lost in the crowd when they mess up.

    So bring on shared raid locks so this doesnt happen again.

    • Just to be clear, I think this is entirely my problem and not yours. There’s no reason for you not to be proud of your raid achievements and to use your knowledge of encounters to help everyone else.

      But if I’m unhappy with my raid group, I am the one who needs to think about where I’d rather be. And I suspect that after the LK is down, I’ll be taking a long break from raiding (apart from the odd PUG here and there, maybe). Maybe I’ll take it up again in Cataclysm if I end up in a raid group and time allows. Maybe it’ll be on a new server, with a new alt, or with a new bunch of people. We’ll see how things go. In any case, we’ve had a good run.

      (It is annoying when non-tanks whine at us on the private tank channel though, which you never have :) )

  6. Yes, yes and yes.

    I experienced it several times, when guildies raiding with 25 man group were joining guild-ran 10 mans.

    They already been there done that, they were totally overgeared, they made kills go smoother but were unintentionally stealing fun and good spirit from rest of us. It wasn’t their fault, it was a system fault.

    On the other hand, many “casual” raiding guilds recruits people with promise of relaxed attendance requirements. What they don’t say, is that if you won’t join optional 10-mans or pug them, you will be out of the loop with experience and behind with emblems/gear.

    Shared raid lockdowns, I want them now!!!

  7. Having experienced players around should make raiding safer and thus more fun for the ones, new to the content, but instead the increased pressure after 1 or 2 wipes lowers the fun. I did Sarth3D the first time yesterday. Healer was totally new to this one to. After the first wipe, the best equipped DD complaind, if there were any healers at all. Thats not the way to motivate someone at 1am. RL did the trick: /kick. About 8 wipes later we downed Sarth and I rolled 99 on the mount. ;)

  8. I can’t wait for the shared lockouts. I have a personal preference for the 10-man raids, but I will raid whichever size suits the guild (we started as 10 and moved to 25 during TotC).

    However, as much as I want to, I cannot raid every night of a week. That means that doing only the guild 3×25-man nights, I end up behind on gear compared to the guys who do guild or guild/pug 10s each week as well. Plus that unofficial guild 10s go through content faster meaning I am also behind on practice of tactics.

    It makes it really difficult to keep up with the raid group as a whole without raiding more than I want to. At least in Cata we as a guild will pick a size and any extra raiding will be on alts, meaning there may be an edge on tactics, but the gear gap shouldn’t be as bad.

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