But I like this post a lot, especially because what irritated me particularly about the whole business (I don’t give a damn how Frost behaves, tbh) was the lack of negotiation. I mean all it needed was for people to actually respond to him. It doesn’t matter whether you believe it’s appropriate to sign up to an instance and not want to do all the bosses, the point is Frost gave them ample time to tell them they were doing the whole thing and let him drop.

Essentially they tried to just bulldozer over him rather than negotiate. Gah.

Yes, very much this. This is pretty much what I was getting at in the post — the silent people probably just want to do whichever is least hassle. And negotiating is a hassle.

I have done these heroics when they were shiny and new (and everyone was “appropriately” geared) and back then I would have been mad to get someone who was in all greens and everything was unenchanted. I crafted all the blues and epics I could (or bought them) on my first couple 80′s and I gemmed/enchanted the gear correctly too. I was always a bit miffed when people would just ding and instantly queue up. But now when most everyone out gears the place, I guess I don’t blame them too much about queuing(sp?) in greens.

I was not saying that they are “bads that need carried by the mighty raiders”. I was facing the reality that even people who never set foot in a raid can easily get every piece of gear to be ilvl 232 and up to some at 264-270(270 being the PvP stuff). With that and the way the DF pairs up groups, you can easily do them with 4 people.

If you have people doing under 1k dps then they need to learn their rotations cause everyone can do that even in unenchanted leveling gear. And with a tank or healer (you are pretty much guaranteed that one of these two is over geared) doing a bit of extra dps you can easily defeat at least the heroics that weren’t patched in with ICC. Now you might have to actually follow the tactics you had to use when these places were new, but you can do them a person short.

I am not saying that demanding to not do what everyone else wants is appropriate, it should be a group consensus. If one person wants to do them all and one does not and the rest of the group says nothing, then there is an issue bigger than trying to complete heroics a person short.

The easiest fix as someone commented elsewhere is to make it so you can’t skip any bosses. Make it like Nexus where you have to kill them all before engaging the final boss.

This was super long, so sorry for the wall of text. I felt you misconstrued what I said, and if you still feel what I said warranted you feeling insulted, then I don’t know how to make my point without sounding elitist. I am trying to look at this realistically. My statement of “Plus you could easily four-man the optional bosses if a DPS leaves. If they couldn’t then he was carrying the group and they should have listened to him.” was probably stated badly, but hopefully I have said it in a way that is less judgmental.

Or it’s a situation where they’re actually producing the level of damage that the instance is tuned for and they actually need a third dps player.

I know that rarely happens in wow, but it’s not a straight up dichotomy between “they could faceroll it with 4″ or “they’re bads who should beg for carries from the mighty raider” and frankly I think it’s rather insulting to suggest it.

I guess what I’m trying to say is, if you don’t have the time to do the whole deal and polish your skill set, then don’t friggin’ sign up in the first place!

Yeah, I’m fully expecting this to be the case in Cataclysm. I haven’t actually seen the beta so no idea if it’s true though.

And I personally am quite easy about how many bosses we kill when tanking an instance, it’s no skin off my nose if people want a full run. But since the only bonus is a few points and some blue gear which pretty much no one wants, I don’t really feel inclined to press the point if someone is really keen to skip some.

On the other hand, I really disagree with zoning in and announcing you don’t have time for a full run. If that was the case, you could have queued specifically for the shorter instances — if you want the random bonus then don’t whine if you get a random dungeon you don’t like.