<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: How we learn. And what is fun anyway?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/how-we-learn-and-what-is-fun-anyway/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/how-we-learn-and-what-is-fun-anyway/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 14:36:12 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Draknareth</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/how-we-learn-and-what-is-fun-anyway/#comment-12542</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Draknareth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2010 12:25:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4913#comment-12542</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem is that Blizzard are trying to make leveling easier for those who already have a max level character, but it detrimentally affects those who don&#039;t. Either way people are going to complain, there is no middle ground between &quot;It takes too damn long to level&quot; and &quot;leveling is too damn fast!&quot; there will ALWAYS be someone that doesn&#039;t like it. A game can never be 100% perfect when there are 12,000,000 opinions on what perfection is :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is that Blizzard are trying to make leveling easier for those who already have a max level character, but it detrimentally affects those who don&#8217;t. Either way people are going to complain, there is no middle ground between &#8220;It takes too damn long to level&#8221; and &#8220;leveling is too damn fast!&#8221; there will ALWAYS be someone that doesn&#8217;t like it. A game can never be 100% perfect when there are 12,000,000 opinions on what perfection is <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: egburr</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/how-we-learn-and-what-is-fun-anyway/#comment-12525</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[egburr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Dec 2010 20:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4913#comment-12525</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@longasc:
&quot;WoW has a problem with challenging content. Apparently everyone should be able to do everything without fear of failing even once.&quot;

I think a lot of stuff in WoW lately has gotten to be too easy. Back in vanilla WoW, the focus seemed to be more towards making you &quot;earn&quot; everything by making it very challenging (next to impossible) without a group or at least very, very tedious and time-consuming.

My complaint back then was that there was a lot of stuff that _could_not_ be done without a good group of friends, and when it came to raids it required a hardcore raiding guild. I didn&#039;t mind the things I could just grind out over a long time, little bits at a time. It was the things that couldn&#039;t be done that bugged me.

I never wanted stuff to be handed to me, but I also got really frustrated at having so much being completely inaccessible. I liked the challenge of the things I could do whether it required one attempt or twenty. I hated the things that I couldn&#039;t even attempt until (for example, with BC heroics) spending three weeks pursuing every comment in LFG or trade trying to get in on a group. Often it was impossible to find people, even within guild, willing to group up for group quests. A lot of BC group quests languished in my quest log for over a year, until Wrath came and I went back around 77-78 to solo them just to finish them out. 

Now, however, it really does feel like everything is just being handed to me. Quests have been streamlined to the point that not only do I not have to figure out where to go from the quest description, but everything done in the same subarea is handed to me at the same time so I never have to visit that particular spot more than once. Leveling is so fast that even without the heirloom gear I can enter an area at an appropriate level and have outleveled it before I&#039;m even halfway through the quests in that area. So, I&#039;m then stuck with the choice of completing content that is absurdly trivial or just skipping it altogether. Both options greatly reduce the enjoyment of the game.

I understand that many people do not enjoy leveling. Why not give them ways to skip ahead without making the process so trivial for everyone else? On the other hand, don&#039;t make it so challenging that only a very small percentage of the people are ever able to do it. Why can&#039;t there be some middle ground?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@longasc:<br />
&#8220;WoW has a problem with challenging content. Apparently everyone should be able to do everything without fear of failing even once.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think a lot of stuff in WoW lately has gotten to be too easy. Back in vanilla WoW, the focus seemed to be more towards making you &#8220;earn&#8221; everything by making it very challenging (next to impossible) without a group or at least very, very tedious and time-consuming.</p>
<p>My complaint back then was that there was a lot of stuff that _could_not_ be done without a good group of friends, and when it came to raids it required a hardcore raiding guild. I didn&#8217;t mind the things I could just grind out over a long time, little bits at a time. It was the things that couldn&#8217;t be done that bugged me.</p>
<p>I never wanted stuff to be handed to me, but I also got really frustrated at having so much being completely inaccessible. I liked the challenge of the things I could do whether it required one attempt or twenty. I hated the things that I couldn&#8217;t even attempt until (for example, with BC heroics) spending three weeks pursuing every comment in LFG or trade trying to get in on a group. Often it was impossible to find people, even within guild, willing to group up for group quests. A lot of BC group quests languished in my quest log for over a year, until Wrath came and I went back around 77-78 to solo them just to finish them out. </p>
<p>Now, however, it really does feel like everything is just being handed to me. Quests have been streamlined to the point that not only do I not have to figure out where to go from the quest description, but everything done in the same subarea is handed to me at the same time so I never have to visit that particular spot more than once. Leveling is so fast that even without the heirloom gear I can enter an area at an appropriate level and have outleveled it before I&#8217;m even halfway through the quests in that area. So, I&#8217;m then stuck with the choice of completing content that is absurdly trivial or just skipping it altogether. Both options greatly reduce the enjoyment of the game.</p>
<p>I understand that many people do not enjoy leveling. Why not give them ways to skip ahead without making the process so trivial for everyone else? On the other hand, don&#8217;t make it so challenging that only a very small percentage of the people are ever able to do it. Why can&#8217;t there be some middle ground?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Drew</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/how-we-learn-and-what-is-fun-anyway/#comment-12402</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Drew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 15:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4913#comment-12402</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m pretty sure you just made my point for me. &quot;WoW players celebrate their fat burger as if it&#039;s something special.&quot;

 Who&#039;s the gaming snob, exactly? What do you play that&#039;s so special? 

 Even with that aside, the whole comment is a ridiculous sweeping generalization. I might play WoW, but I play other games, as well. I don&#039;t think any of them make me &quot;special&quot;, or that the game itself is &quot;special&quot;. I am not here trumpeting that message at all. I simply don&#039;t understand all the venom people like you spit at WoW, as if it&#039;s inconeivable that people could possibly enjoy something that &#039;dumb&#039;. 

 I didn&#039;t insinuate new players are dumb - I said you should go read MMOGC&#039;s story about the friend she just brought over to WoW. I think a lot of MMO Vets have forgotten what it&#039;s like to step into a virtual world for the first time. It&#039;s a good reminder of what it was like; even with the experience being &quot;on rails&quot;, it can&#039;t teach you everything at once.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure you just made my point for me. &#8220;WoW players celebrate their fat burger as if it&#8217;s something special.&#8221;</p>
<p> Who&#8217;s the gaming snob, exactly? What do you play that&#8217;s so special? </p>
<p> Even with that aside, the whole comment is a ridiculous sweeping generalization. I might play WoW, but I play other games, as well. I don&#8217;t think any of them make me &#8220;special&#8221;, or that the game itself is &#8220;special&#8221;. I am not here trumpeting that message at all. I simply don&#8217;t understand all the venom people like you spit at WoW, as if it&#8217;s inconeivable that people could possibly enjoy something that &#8216;dumb&#8217;. </p>
<p> I didn&#8217;t insinuate new players are dumb &#8211; I said you should go read MMOGC&#8217;s story about the friend she just brought over to WoW. I think a lot of MMO Vets have forgotten what it&#8217;s like to step into a virtual world for the first time. It&#8217;s a good reminder of what it was like; even with the experience being &#8220;on rails&#8221;, it can&#8217;t teach you everything at once.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bronte</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/how-we-learn-and-what-is-fun-anyway/#comment-12401</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bronte]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 15:40:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4913#comment-12401</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;So there are some kinds of player who just don’t want to deal with stress or anxiety.&quot;

I suppose that is where Blizzard&#039;s &quot;on-rails&quot; experience comes into play.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So there are some kinds of player who just don’t want to deal with stress or anxiety.&#8221;</p>
<p>I suppose that is where Blizzard&#8217;s &#8220;on-rails&#8221; experience comes into play.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Longasc</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/how-we-learn-and-what-is-fun-anyway/#comment-12400</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Longasc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 15:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4913#comment-12400</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am sorry, but WoW players celebrate their fat burger as something special.

You are the &quot;gaming snob&quot; when you assume that new players are below the level of vegetables, aka dumb.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sorry, but WoW players celebrate their fat burger as something special.</p>
<p>You are the &#8220;gaming snob&#8221; when you assume that new players are below the level of vegetables, aka dumb.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Drew</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/how-we-learn-and-what-is-fun-anyway/#comment-12398</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Drew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4913#comment-12398</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Or it could be that they, I know this is going to shock you given your comments around the blogosphere lately, actually like it.

Your concept of fun or &#039;what the game should be&#039; doesn&#039;t necessarily apply to the masses. Some people are looking for a brief distraction from day to day life and don&#039;t need to be constantly challenged in their game. For those that do, there are options - serious PvP (arena), hardcore raiding guilds, etc. Are you really taking the position that no one plays WoW for the leveling game itself? There are a number of &quot;altoholic&quot; and/or &quot;casual&quot; blogs (and countless blogless players) that would beg to differ, I&#039;m sure. 

And if you&#039;re going to contest the the open world is no longer a challenge or an adventure, it might benefit you to actually gain some perspective on that in light of the recent changes to WoW. For a new player&#039;s perspective, for example, go read the latest piece about the &quot;WoW noob&quot; over on MMOgamerchick&#039;s blog. Or, check out Rohan&#039;s piece today about the named quest mobs. People playing characters from the ground up are finding the experience better, and somewhat more challenging, than it was in the past. 

 Now, if you&#039;re running around decked out in heirlooms, then sure, the leveling game isn&#039;t a challenge at all - but that&#039;s the tool Blizzard has given players who already have a max level character to get another one into raiding-ready shape.  That&#039;s a conscious choice you make as a raiding player, and sure, those people probably see leveling as a chore. Doesn&#039;t mean everyone does. 

 As for the &quot;lowest common denominator&quot;? Personally, I think that&#039;s just an insult gaming snobs like to throw at the blanket WoW population. The lowest common denominator is over playing FarmVille, man. (See, I can do it, too!) 

 I wonder how long the lowest common denominator will continue to eat at McDonald&#039;s... psst, you do realize that people who play other games also play WoW, right? Just like people who eat at fancy restaurants also eat at McD&#039;s. Pigeonholing the population of WoW players as the LCD is just silly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or it could be that they, I know this is going to shock you given your comments around the blogosphere lately, actually like it.</p>
<p>Your concept of fun or &#8216;what the game should be&#8217; doesn&#8217;t necessarily apply to the masses. Some people are looking for a brief distraction from day to day life and don&#8217;t need to be constantly challenged in their game. For those that do, there are options &#8211; serious PvP (arena), hardcore raiding guilds, etc. Are you really taking the position that no one plays WoW for the leveling game itself? There are a number of &#8220;altoholic&#8221; and/or &#8220;casual&#8221; blogs (and countless blogless players) that would beg to differ, I&#8217;m sure. </p>
<p>And if you&#8217;re going to contest the the open world is no longer a challenge or an adventure, it might benefit you to actually gain some perspective on that in light of the recent changes to WoW. For a new player&#8217;s perspective, for example, go read the latest piece about the &#8220;WoW noob&#8221; over on MMOgamerchick&#8217;s blog. Or, check out Rohan&#8217;s piece today about the named quest mobs. People playing characters from the ground up are finding the experience better, and somewhat more challenging, than it was in the past. </p>
<p> Now, if you&#8217;re running around decked out in heirlooms, then sure, the leveling game isn&#8217;t a challenge at all &#8211; but that&#8217;s the tool Blizzard has given players who already have a max level character to get another one into raiding-ready shape.  That&#8217;s a conscious choice you make as a raiding player, and sure, those people probably see leveling as a chore. Doesn&#8217;t mean everyone does. </p>
<p> As for the &#8220;lowest common denominator&#8221;? Personally, I think that&#8217;s just an insult gaming snobs like to throw at the blanket WoW population. The lowest common denominator is over playing FarmVille, man. (See, I can do it, too!) </p>
<p> I wonder how long the lowest common denominator will continue to eat at McDonald&#8217;s&#8230; psst, you do realize that people who play other games also play WoW, right? Just like people who eat at fancy restaurants also eat at McD&#8217;s. Pigeonholing the population of WoW players as the LCD is just silly.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Longasc</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/how-we-learn-and-what-is-fun-anyway/#comment-12396</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Longasc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 10:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4913#comment-12396</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[! - dear WoW players, read this:

-&gt;:

&quot;Malcom Knowles: Self-concept: As a person matures his self concept moves from one of being a dependent personality toward one of being a self-directed human being.&quot;

?:

Pick your reward:
1. become a self-directed player
2. follow the next !


WoW has a problem with challenging content. Apparently everyone should be able to do everything without fear of failing even once.
Challenge does not exist in the &quot;world&quot; of Warcraft anymore. Dungeons at least have the &quot;heroic&quot; option of doing things in a semi-awkward way to make them more difficult. They replaced &quot;adventure&quot; and the option of failure with simple &quot;fun&quot; content. I wonder how long the lowest common denominator approach will work.

Of my friends who still play or were playing WoW one says he is there for the PvP, all others for dungeons and raids and all see levelling through the world as a chore. I wonder if the new super fast on-rails levelling experience will not bore them or if they will like it for the occasionally laugh-my-ass-off quest Blizz built into it, and the sheer speed - so that they can get over it more quickly.

WoW is for sure a much fancier abbreviation than DC - DungeonCraft. And there are for sure people who are content with a world where they can ride/fly from A to B and occasionally mine a node or harvest a plant.


I sometimes wonder if people simply got told so often that WoW is great that they believe it by now. It might have become a cultural phenomenon and an acquired taste.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>! &#8211; dear WoW players, read this:</p>
<p>-&gt;:</p>
<p>&#8220;Malcom Knowles: Self-concept: As a person matures his self concept moves from one of being a dependent personality toward one of being a self-directed human being.&#8221;</p>
<p>?:</p>
<p>Pick your reward:<br />
1. become a self-directed player<br />
2. follow the next !</p>
<p>WoW has a problem with challenging content. Apparently everyone should be able to do everything without fear of failing even once.<br />
Challenge does not exist in the &#8220;world&#8221; of Warcraft anymore. Dungeons at least have the &#8220;heroic&#8221; option of doing things in a semi-awkward way to make them more difficult. They replaced &#8220;adventure&#8221; and the option of failure with simple &#8220;fun&#8221; content. I wonder how long the lowest common denominator approach will work.</p>
<p>Of my friends who still play or were playing WoW one says he is there for the PvP, all others for dungeons and raids and all see levelling through the world as a chore. I wonder if the new super fast on-rails levelling experience will not bore them or if they will like it for the occasionally laugh-my-ass-off quest Blizz built into it, and the sheer speed &#8211; so that they can get over it more quickly.</p>
<p>WoW is for sure a much fancier abbreviation than DC &#8211; DungeonCraft. And there are for sure people who are content with a world where they can ride/fly from A to B and occasionally mine a node or harvest a plant.</p>
<p>I sometimes wonder if people simply got told so often that WoW is great that they believe it by now. It might have become a cultural phenomenon and an acquired taste.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
