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	<title>Comments on: The MMO difficulty curve</title>
	<atom:link href="http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/the-mmo-difficulty-curve/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/the-mmo-difficulty-curve/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/the-mmo-difficulty-curve/#comment-12715</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Dec 2010 15:28:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4982#comment-12715</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[They&#039;ve just nerfed Karsh, making the superheated armor debuff last 17 instead of 12 seconds.   Apparently they thought tanking him was too hard.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They&#8217;ve just nerfed Karsh, making the superheated armor debuff last 17 instead of 12 seconds.   Apparently they thought tanking him was too hard.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/the-mmo-difficulty-curve/#comment-12709</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Dec 2010 13:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4982#comment-12709</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yup, some people really did detest some of the vehicle fights for exactly this reason. 

I&#039;m in the minority of people who liked Oculus though.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yup, some people really did detest some of the vehicle fights for exactly this reason. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m in the minority of people who liked Oculus though.</p>
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		<title>By: Bronte</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/the-mmo-difficulty-curve/#comment-12708</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bronte]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Dec 2010 12:41:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4982#comment-12708</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your argument here is part of the reason people in WotLK used to hate the Occulus pre-nerf. No matter how geared you were, the final fight was a test of your skill, because you had three drakes to choose from, and your gear was of no consequence. You could be naked, and still have a 75K health drake to do the fight.

I remember when we first ran Hellfire Ramparts on Heroic. We wiped three times on the first pull. By the time The Burning Crusade ended, we were zipping through all bosses in the instances in less than 15 minutes, chain pulling or crowd-pulling the mobs in the instance to our heart&#039;s content.

In sharp contrast, Occulus&#039; last battle remained the same in difficulty because of a very simple mechanic: no matter who you were, your &quot;gear&quot; and &quot;abilities&quot; were forced to be at a constant.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your argument here is part of the reason people in WotLK used to hate the Occulus pre-nerf. No matter how geared you were, the final fight was a test of your skill, because you had three drakes to choose from, and your gear was of no consequence. You could be naked, and still have a 75K health drake to do the fight.</p>
<p>I remember when we first ran Hellfire Ramparts on Heroic. We wiped three times on the first pull. By the time The Burning Crusade ended, we were zipping through all bosses in the instances in less than 15 minutes, chain pulling or crowd-pulling the mobs in the instance to our heart&#8217;s content.</p>
<p>In sharp contrast, Occulus&#8217; last battle remained the same in difficulty because of a very simple mechanic: no matter who you were, your &#8220;gear&#8221; and &#8220;abilities&#8221; were forced to be at a constant.</p>
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		<title>By: Ceapie</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/the-mmo-difficulty-curve/#comment-12687</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ceapie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Dec 2010 14:00:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4982#comment-12687</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As a healer, I&#039;ve noticed that the quality of LFD groups seems to have taken a lurch downwards over the past few days. It could be just the luck I&#039;ve had, but whereas the initial week or so was all-CC, all the time (and trust me, I was grateful for it) we&#039;ve now gone back to WOTLK AOE madness.

I was actually told not to hex anything by the tank on a normal Grim Batol run, and on a run of Lost City this morning, every hex I threw down was interupted by a hunter spamming volley. This, of course, made it that much harder to heal, and led to lots of sitting about waiting for my mana to come back.

Maybe I&#039;m becoming less patient, or, as I suspect, the better players are moving onto heroics, leaving those without the skill, gear or guildmates to battle it out in the normal runs. Either way, I want the old playstyles back!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a healer, I&#8217;ve noticed that the quality of LFD groups seems to have taken a lurch downwards over the past few days. It could be just the luck I&#8217;ve had, but whereas the initial week or so was all-CC, all the time (and trust me, I was grateful for it) we&#8217;ve now gone back to WOTLK AOE madness.</p>
<p>I was actually told not to hex anything by the tank on a normal Grim Batol run, and on a run of Lost City this morning, every hex I threw down was interupted by a hunter spamming volley. This, of course, made it that much harder to heal, and led to lots of sitting about waiting for my mana to come back.</p>
<p>Maybe I&#8217;m becoming less patient, or, as I suspect, the better players are moving onto heroics, leaving those without the skill, gear or guildmates to battle it out in the normal runs. Either way, I want the old playstyles back!</p>
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		<title>By: garumoo</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/the-mmo-difficulty-curve/#comment-12670</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[garumoo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Dec 2010 06:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4982#comment-12670</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Way back in vanilla they did try something a bit different - instead of handing out +20% upgrades they instead required a gradual build up of resistance flavored gear.

Team that with weaponry that has bonuses vs certain types of mobs and you&#039;ve got the potential for multiple alternative tracks, none which invalidate the others.

Guilds could also be different in regards to what content they are focussing on - you could have a dragon slaying guild in the frozen tundra of the north, a demon vanquishing guild tackling the under deeps, and another dragon slaying skill retaking the fiery slopes of Mt Doomy Doom. Each equal in power and progression. 

Players would hate it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Way back in vanilla they did try something a bit different &#8211; instead of handing out +20% upgrades they instead required a gradual build up of resistance flavored gear.</p>
<p>Team that with weaponry that has bonuses vs certain types of mobs and you&#8217;ve got the potential for multiple alternative tracks, none which invalidate the others.</p>
<p>Guilds could also be different in regards to what content they are focussing on &#8211; you could have a dragon slaying guild in the frozen tundra of the north, a demon vanquishing guild tackling the under deeps, and another dragon slaying skill retaking the fiery slopes of Mt Doomy Doom. Each equal in power and progression. </p>
<p>Players would hate it.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/the-mmo-difficulty-curve/#comment-12669</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Dec 2010 05:10:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4982#comment-12669</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is partly because a lot of good tanks are not running LFD PUGs in heroics. Let&#039;s face it, who would willingly choose to /learn/ a new encounter in the company of PUG dps and healers who will be complaining at every wipe?

But also, since there&#039;s no special reason why tank players would be worse than anyone else, if you&#039;re right then it implies that dps are getting an easy ride again this expansion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is partly because a lot of good tanks are not running LFD PUGs in heroics. Let&#8217;s face it, who would willingly choose to /learn/ a new encounter in the company of PUG dps and healers who will be complaining at every wipe?</p>
<p>But also, since there&#8217;s no special reason why tank players would be worse than anyone else, if you&#8217;re right then it implies that dps are getting an easy ride again this expansion.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Jones who is blogless</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/the-mmo-difficulty-curve/#comment-12668</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Simon Jones who is blogless]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Dec 2010 23:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4982#comment-12668</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To be honest gear and so on hasn&#039;t been an issue. The numbers requirements for heroics haven&#039;t actually been that stringent, once you know what you&#039;re doing. 

For all the DPS standing in the fire jokes, what I &#039;ve been having more trouble from tanks in heroics than anything. Mostly because the difference between a good tank and a bad tank is so utterly binary and at this point, there isn&#039;t a comfortable layer of gear to insulate us from it. 

So any tank execution dependent fight has turned into a kind of endless death march as people keep dropping out and being replaced until none of the original group are there and a tank shows up who knows what they&#039;re doing and  Karsh Steelbender finally goddamn dies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be honest gear and so on hasn&#8217;t been an issue. The numbers requirements for heroics haven&#8217;t actually been that stringent, once you know what you&#8217;re doing. </p>
<p>For all the DPS standing in the fire jokes, what I &#8216;ve been having more trouble from tanks in heroics than anything. Mostly because the difference between a good tank and a bad tank is so utterly binary and at this point, there isn&#8217;t a comfortable layer of gear to insulate us from it. </p>
<p>So any tank execution dependent fight has turned into a kind of endless death march as people keep dropping out and being replaced until none of the original group are there and a tank shows up who knows what they&#8217;re doing and  Karsh Steelbender finally goddamn dies.</p>
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		<title>By: Oestrus</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/the-mmo-difficulty-curve/#comment-12667</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Oestrus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:48:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4982#comment-12667</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey there, Spinks!  I wanted to reply to the comment that you were nice enough to leave on my WoM post, but the comment feature hasn&#039;t been appearing correctly for me, for quite some time.  So, for the time being I&#039;m not able to comments on any of the WoM pages.  

I just wanted to say that you brought up a very good point and I agree that if someone has an interest in playing their off-spec role a bit more that they should absolutely say something to those in charge.  

I guess where I was going with that was that I see people who constantly drop hints that they want to do that, the officers thank them for informing them and may politely say it isn&#039;t happening and they still keep pressing the issue.  That&#039;s where I was coming from.  

Badgering people to do your off-spec role is never a good thing.  

Thanks for stopping by and I appreciate the comment!  

:)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey there, Spinks!  I wanted to reply to the comment that you were nice enough to leave on my WoM post, but the comment feature hasn&#8217;t been appearing correctly for me, for quite some time.  So, for the time being I&#8217;m not able to comments on any of the WoM pages.  </p>
<p>I just wanted to say that you brought up a very good point and I agree that if someone has an interest in playing their off-spec role a bit more that they should absolutely say something to those in charge.  </p>
<p>I guess where I was going with that was that I see people who constantly drop hints that they want to do that, the officers thank them for informing them and may politely say it isn&#8217;t happening and they still keep pressing the issue.  That&#8217;s where I was coming from.  </p>
<p>Badgering people to do your off-spec role is never a good thing.  </p>
<p>Thanks for stopping by and I appreciate the comment!<br />
 <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Bear</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/the-mmo-difficulty-curve/#comment-12666</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bear]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Dec 2010 19:18:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4982#comment-12666</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In fact there is.  You get an achievement called [Raid Ready] for not standing in the fire in Deadmines.

Might not be that reliable though.  A friend of mine got it by dying before the fire came out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In fact there is.  You get an achievement called [Raid Ready] for not standing in the fire in Deadmines.</p>
<p>Might not be that reliable though.  A friend of mine got it by dying before the fire came out.</p>
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		<title>By: Tremayne</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/the-mmo-difficulty-curve/#comment-12665</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tremayne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Dec 2010 18:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=4982#comment-12665</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[WoW&#039;s problem from very early on has been gear inflation. Each tier of content gives gear that is better than that of previous tiers, so most of the previous content gets trivialised. What&#039;s worse, once players get used to this as their primary reward mechanism, then each new batch of content has to offer MOAR EPIC EPIX or else players who are used to equating &#039;reward&#039; with &#039;better gear&#039; will ask &quot;What&#039;s the point?&quot;

A better design (and much harder to execute) is to make the rewards comparable but slightly up the difficulty of each tier of content. Being in tier 1 gear for your level wouldn&#039;t automatically bar you from attempting the tier 10 raid dungeon - but the player needs to have the skills and experience to succeed at that tier. Raiding guilds would have to &#039;train up&#039; new players rather than &#039;gear them up&#039;.

Of course, I&#039;m not sure how many players would run the harder raid instances if it was for the challenge and the glory, rather than the loot. Some, definitely - but not all. And it&#039;s probably too late for WoW to take this approach after 6 years of luring their players to the dark side :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WoW&#8217;s problem from very early on has been gear inflation. Each tier of content gives gear that is better than that of previous tiers, so most of the previous content gets trivialised. What&#8217;s worse, once players get used to this as their primary reward mechanism, then each new batch of content has to offer MOAR EPIC EPIX or else players who are used to equating &#8216;reward&#8217; with &#8216;better gear&#8217; will ask &#8220;What&#8217;s the point?&#8221;</p>
<p>A better design (and much harder to execute) is to make the rewards comparable but slightly up the difficulty of each tier of content. Being in tier 1 gear for your level wouldn&#8217;t automatically bar you from attempting the tier 10 raid dungeon &#8211; but the player needs to have the skills and experience to succeed at that tier. Raiding guilds would have to &#8216;train up&#8217; new players rather than &#8216;gear them up&#8217;.</p>
<p>Of course, I&#8217;m not sure how many players would run the harder raid instances if it was for the challenge and the glory, rather than the loot. Some, definitely &#8211; but not all. And it&#8217;s probably too late for WoW to take this approach after 6 years of luring their players to the dark side <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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