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	<title>Comments on: Thought of the day: More on social responsibility</title>
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	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/thought-of-the-day-more-on-social-responsibility/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
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		<title>By: Stabs</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/thought-of-the-day-more-on-social-responsibility/#comment-13382</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stabs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2011 23:36:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5158#comment-13382</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Talking to them is also an option. I sometimes dps in Blood Presence simply because I forgot I was in it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Talking to them is also an option. I sometimes dps in Blood Presence simply because I forgot I was in it.</p>
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		<title>By: ZombiePirate</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/thought-of-the-day-more-on-social-responsibility/#comment-13375</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ZombiePirate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2011 10:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5158#comment-13375</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In our last friends levelling groups we had two druids and two pallies, that way we were never short on tanks/healers, it was very easy doing dungeons. However, on the social responsiblity side I play games to have fun, generally if I am healing it feels more like work, especially when bad players are being bad players. I shouldn&#039;t be penalised for picking a support class rather than the &quot;all-star DPS&quot;but when I play DPS I feel more relaxed about doing things than when I choose to do either of the other two roles. I play my games to relax after working all day.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In our last friends levelling groups we had two druids and two pallies, that way we were never short on tanks/healers, it was very easy doing dungeons. However, on the social responsiblity side I play games to have fun, generally if I am healing it feels more like work, especially when bad players are being bad players. I shouldn&#8217;t be penalised for picking a support class rather than the &#8220;all-star DPS&#8221;but when I play DPS I feel more relaxed about doing things than when I choose to do either of the other two roles. I play my games to relax after working all day.</p>
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		<title>By: nugget</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/thought-of-the-day-more-on-social-responsibility/#comment-13371</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nugget]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2011 07:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5158#comment-13371</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[DPS metres!

Something I&#039;ve gone back to really enjoying not having to deal with.

DPSmetres are... horrible things. Or well. A single factor that can turn slowly into a Horrible Thing. One of the glaring differences (and Recount was always one of the first addons I downloaded!) I&#039;m seeing now in GW, after a month to see Cataclysm then going home is... what a horrible effect DPSmetres have on mindsets.

With DPSmetres, suddenly being good is doing more damage than everyone else, and damn the consequences. No! Can&#039;t waste time CCing or anything, can&#039;t buff anyone else, because that might take away time from my almighty DPSmetre score!

Yes, I&#039;m exaggerating - but that DPSmetre stuff is also something that particularly struck me about WoW, and WoW&#039;s entire combat architecture, when I was running Domain of Anguish with 2 friends in GW last night.

That is, even though WoW encourages team play on the surface, the very construction of the classes and builds encourage solo play. That is, everyone plays as an autonomous unit within the group, caring only for their own cooldowns and buffing their own roles. Tanks and healers too. 

I&#039;m not explaining this very well, I&#039;m afraid. But it&#039;s things like... how GW has a spell called &#039;Splinter Weapon&#039; that when cast on a target, makes each of their physical attacks hit 4 other targets, for x number hits. And the damage/DPS boost is attributed to the target, not the caster. This sort of spell is VERY common in GW. And really, all you have to give up to bring it is one slot on your 8-skill skillbar. 

In WoW, the only thing I can think of that comes readily/easily to mind, that buffs someone else, and gives them the benefit in terms of numbers, is Power Infusion. And you have to go pretty deep into the Disc tree to get that. Basically, (I don&#039;t think) you would have that without being a Disco-preet.

I guess what I&#039;m trying to say is one of the things I didn&#039;t like about WoW was how, when it comes down to the actual nitty-gritty of it, team play is NOT built into the system and NOT encouraged on a truly fundamental level. (Bear in mind, I played WoW for 3 years - Vanilla to end of TBC - before moving to GW.) And it&#039;s this very obsessive individuality built into the system that, paired with DPSmetres, encourages mindsets which are counterproductive to achieving team play and spirit.

This is something inherent in the architecture itself though, and there&#039;s no point or purpose in railing against it. Either you can accept this kind of play, and enjoy it, or you can&#039;t.

Hope this gave a slightly different perspective as to why DPSmetres can be da ooky. =)

TL;DR
DPSMetres tend to encourage selfish play.

*waddly nugget waddles off, leaving another crumbly battery wall of text in her wake*]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DPS metres!</p>
<p>Something I&#8217;ve gone back to really enjoying not having to deal with.</p>
<p>DPSmetres are&#8230; horrible things. Or well. A single factor that can turn slowly into a Horrible Thing. One of the glaring differences (and Recount was always one of the first addons I downloaded!) I&#8217;m seeing now in GW, after a month to see Cataclysm then going home is&#8230; what a horrible effect DPSmetres have on mindsets.</p>
<p>With DPSmetres, suddenly being good is doing more damage than everyone else, and damn the consequences. No! Can&#8217;t waste time CCing or anything, can&#8217;t buff anyone else, because that might take away time from my almighty DPSmetre score!</p>
<p>Yes, I&#8217;m exaggerating &#8211; but that DPSmetre stuff is also something that particularly struck me about WoW, and WoW&#8217;s entire combat architecture, when I was running Domain of Anguish with 2 friends in GW last night.</p>
<p>That is, even though WoW encourages team play on the surface, the very construction of the classes and builds encourage solo play. That is, everyone plays as an autonomous unit within the group, caring only for their own cooldowns and buffing their own roles. Tanks and healers too. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not explaining this very well, I&#8217;m afraid. But it&#8217;s things like&#8230; how GW has a spell called &#8216;Splinter Weapon&#8217; that when cast on a target, makes each of their physical attacks hit 4 other targets, for x number hits. And the damage/DPS boost is attributed to the target, not the caster. This sort of spell is VERY common in GW. And really, all you have to give up to bring it is one slot on your 8-skill skillbar. </p>
<p>In WoW, the only thing I can think of that comes readily/easily to mind, that buffs someone else, and gives them the benefit in terms of numbers, is Power Infusion. And you have to go pretty deep into the Disc tree to get that. Basically, (I don&#8217;t think) you would have that without being a Disco-preet.</p>
<p>I guess what I&#8217;m trying to say is one of the things I didn&#8217;t like about WoW was how, when it comes down to the actual nitty-gritty of it, team play is NOT built into the system and NOT encouraged on a truly fundamental level. (Bear in mind, I played WoW for 3 years &#8211; Vanilla to end of TBC &#8211; before moving to GW.) And it&#8217;s this very obsessive individuality built into the system that, paired with DPSmetres, encourages mindsets which are counterproductive to achieving team play and spirit.</p>
<p>This is something inherent in the architecture itself though, and there&#8217;s no point or purpose in railing against it. Either you can accept this kind of play, and enjoy it, or you can&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Hope this gave a slightly different perspective as to why DPSmetres can be da ooky. =)</p>
<p>TL;DR<br />
DPSMetres tend to encourage selfish play.</p>
<p>*waddly nugget waddles off, leaving another crumbly battery wall of text in her wake*</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/thought-of-the-day-more-on-social-responsibility/#comment-13370</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2011 05:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5158#comment-13370</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem I&#039;ve mostly had with two healers is that they get annoyed at each other for healing each other&#039;s targets, particularly if your group very obviously does not need two healers. Healers often like to feel needed and if they are very obviously not needed they will get pissy and not have fun. 

What I&#039;m getting at, and you&#039;re avoiding, is that a large part of the problem is WoW&#039;s insistance that a group of 5 must be made up of 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 dps. So if your 5 friends had other ideas, you&#039;re going to struggle. And if no one wants to tank then you need to GUILT someone into doing it whether they want to or not. You can play around with the numbers if people are playing hybrids, but WoW has deliberately made it harder and harder to do so -- frex you can&#039;t make a proper hybrid build any more even if you wanted to. 

I think this problem is getting worse in MMOs and its because people are more and more likely to enter the game with a premade group or guild including people they already know. Back in the day, my memory is that we&#039;d be more likely to actually meet people in game and build groups that way, so players would have been experimenting with classes and would have already picked one they liked by the time you met them. This is more like going into things blind, or picking classes based on what you liked before or how the descriptions sound, which isn&#039;t always the best way to make decisions. You can easily end up with one guy in your group who ALWAYS plays the tank and one who ALWAYS plays the healer. And I&#039;d argue that&#039;s possibly bad for burnout (people can get bored of the same roles, esp if they want to try tanking or healing but their fixed group can&#039;t allow it) or encouraging more people to try those roles.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem I&#8217;ve mostly had with two healers is that they get annoyed at each other for healing each other&#8217;s targets, particularly if your group very obviously does not need two healers. Healers often like to feel needed and if they are very obviously not needed they will get pissy and not have fun. </p>
<p>What I&#8217;m getting at, and you&#8217;re avoiding, is that a large part of the problem is WoW&#8217;s insistance that a group of 5 must be made up of 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 dps. So if your 5 friends had other ideas, you&#8217;re going to struggle. And if no one wants to tank then you need to GUILT someone into doing it whether they want to or not. You can play around with the numbers if people are playing hybrids, but WoW has deliberately made it harder and harder to do so &#8212; frex you can&#8217;t make a proper hybrid build any more even if you wanted to. </p>
<p>I think this problem is getting worse in MMOs and its because people are more and more likely to enter the game with a premade group or guild including people they already know. Back in the day, my memory is that we&#8217;d be more likely to actually meet people in game and build groups that way, so players would have been experimenting with classes and would have already picked one they liked by the time you met them. This is more like going into things blind, or picking classes based on what you liked before or how the descriptions sound, which isn&#8217;t always the best way to make decisions. You can easily end up with one guy in your group who ALWAYS plays the tank and one who ALWAYS plays the healer. And I&#8217;d argue that&#8217;s possibly bad for burnout (people can get bored of the same roles, esp if they want to try tanking or healing but their fixed group can&#8217;t allow it) or encouraging more people to try those roles.</p>
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		<title>By: Espoire</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/thought-of-the-day-more-on-social-responsibility/#comment-13369</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Espoire]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2011 03:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5158#comment-13369</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ha, and in fact, the game will let you roll with two healers if you do it the conventional way, and it will work out fine. Most problems really do evaporate if you build your groups by hand.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha, and in fact, the game will let you roll with two healers if you do it the conventional way, and it will work out fine. Most problems really do evaporate if you build your groups by hand.</p>
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		<title>By: Dblade</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/thought-of-the-day-more-on-social-responsibility/#comment-13368</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dblade]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Jan 2011 21:20:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5158#comment-13368</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Problem is unless those 2 friends find they like tanking or healing, chances are the little bubble of friends will bust. I&#039;ve seen it many times. You can&#039;t force people to like a class: if they don&#039;t, those friends will find they will level separately, get new friends, or quit the game.

I&#039;ve also seen the flip side or your argument in FFXI: crappy players picking a healer, tank, or support class and getting carried by the DPS. Depending on the instance or leveling, it can be possible to make mediocre progress through brute force DPS, especially if the DPS is an offtank.

FFXI took it to a whole new level: it was possible to remove both tanks and healers from the equation entirely:

Burn party: 3 DPS bouncing hate, two pulling and CC support, one healer.

Pet Party: 3-6 pet jobs, no tanks or healers.

Even in some endgame instances, these worked.

I think the problem is that WoW really is a crappy game in terms of mechanics, with little to no options in the hamster wheel they call raids for variant playstyles to emerge. It takes the diku mud model, ruthlessly pares it down, and loses all the variations the old model had for class utility.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Problem is unless those 2 friends find they like tanking or healing, chances are the little bubble of friends will bust. I&#8217;ve seen it many times. You can&#8217;t force people to like a class: if they don&#8217;t, those friends will find they will level separately, get new friends, or quit the game.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also seen the flip side or your argument in FFXI: crappy players picking a healer, tank, or support class and getting carried by the DPS. Depending on the instance or leveling, it can be possible to make mediocre progress through brute force DPS, especially if the DPS is an offtank.</p>
<p>FFXI took it to a whole new level: it was possible to remove both tanks and healers from the equation entirely:</p>
<p>Burn party: 3 DPS bouncing hate, two pulling and CC support, one healer.</p>
<p>Pet Party: 3-6 pet jobs, no tanks or healers.</p>
<p>Even in some endgame instances, these worked.</p>
<p>I think the problem is that WoW really is a crappy game in terms of mechanics, with little to no options in the hamster wheel they call raids for variant playstyles to emerge. It takes the diku mud model, ruthlessly pares it down, and loses all the variations the old model had for class utility.</p>
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		<title>By: Tobold</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/thought-of-the-day-more-on-social-responsibility/#comment-13367</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tobold]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Jan 2011 20:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5158#comment-13367</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If the tank is really bad, you might *need* two healers. :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the tank is really bad, you might *need* two healers. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/thought-of-the-day-more-on-social-responsibility/#comment-13365</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Jan 2011 08:01:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5158#comment-13365</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I haven&#039;t seen that, but I HAVE seen groups of friends where two (or more) people wanted to play a healer. What would you advise them? Or what if the person in the group of friends who wants to tank turns out to be really really bad at it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t seen that, but I HAVE seen groups of friends where two (or more) people wanted to play a healer. What would you advise them? Or what if the person in the group of friends who wants to tank turns out to be really really bad at it?</p>
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		<title>By: Tobold</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/thought-of-the-day-more-on-social-responsibility/#comment-13364</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tobold]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Jan 2011 07:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5158#comment-13364</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Imagine you do select and build your group in the most traditional manner possible, getting 4 real life friends together for a project where you level up grouping together. You ask who wants to play what, and all 5 want to play a dps. What do you do?

I think most people in that situation would clearly see that two of the five friends will have to switch to tank and healer, otherwise their project to play together is a non-starter.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Imagine you do select and build your group in the most traditional manner possible, getting 4 real life friends together for a project where you level up grouping together. You ask who wants to play what, and all 5 want to play a dps. What do you do?</p>
<p>I think most people in that situation would clearly see that two of the five friends will have to switch to tank and healer, otherwise their project to play together is a non-starter.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/thought-of-the-day-more-on-social-responsibility/#comment-13363</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Jan 2011 07:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5158#comment-13363</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I need to think more about this, but my first thought is that you&#039;re probably right. It is definitely partly the LFD, which has made grouping way more accessible and especially to people who don&#039;t have the time (or confidence) to spend creating a group from scratch. But also partly the way Blizzard, by design, has pushed the difficulty up on 5 mans so that your chances of success are increasingly dependent on every person in that group being the equivalent of a raid-ready player (ie. hardcore accomplished). And in particular in Cataclysm, the increased emphasis on dps means that the option really doesn&#039;t exist of playing a laid back support class who can focus on one or two buffs/ crowd control and experienced players would STILL be happy to have you along. 

Or in other words, Blizzard has made it harder and harder for players of mixed skill and experience to play together.

I&#039;ve certainly played MMOs which were far far more relaxed about grouping, either because they didn&#039;t have fixed group sizes so you could always just invite more people, or the group roles were designed so that there was a role for casual players in groups who weren&#039;t interested in minmaxing, or they were less addon/damage meter focussed. So yeah, I think Blizzard&#039;s design plays into this. They&#039;ve managed to make a game designed around the hardcore which is still played by masses of casual players.

I think it&#039;s had a bad effect on the MMO player base in general in that people are FAR too focussed on being &#039;pro&#039; (this is where you get &#039;pro&#039; support players who want a design where the best support spec involves gimping your class for everything else, so that the hoi polloi will shy off encroaching on the terrain of &#039;pro healers&#039; et al) and far too little focussed on the social challenges of building groups and alliances and seeing the players you have as an asset to be used to your faction&#039;s best advantage.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I need to think more about this, but my first thought is that you&#8217;re probably right. It is definitely partly the LFD, which has made grouping way more accessible and especially to people who don&#8217;t have the time (or confidence) to spend creating a group from scratch. But also partly the way Blizzard, by design, has pushed the difficulty up on 5 mans so that your chances of success are increasingly dependent on every person in that group being the equivalent of a raid-ready player (ie. hardcore accomplished). And in particular in Cataclysm, the increased emphasis on dps means that the option really doesn&#8217;t exist of playing a laid back support class who can focus on one or two buffs/ crowd control and experienced players would STILL be happy to have you along. </p>
<p>Or in other words, Blizzard has made it harder and harder for players of mixed skill and experience to play together.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve certainly played MMOs which were far far more relaxed about grouping, either because they didn&#8217;t have fixed group sizes so you could always just invite more people, or the group roles were designed so that there was a role for casual players in groups who weren&#8217;t interested in minmaxing, or they were less addon/damage meter focussed. So yeah, I think Blizzard&#8217;s design plays into this. They&#8217;ve managed to make a game designed around the hardcore which is still played by masses of casual players.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s had a bad effect on the MMO player base in general in that people are FAR too focussed on being &#8216;pro&#8217; (this is where you get &#8216;pro&#8217; support players who want a design where the best support spec involves gimping your class for everything else, so that the hoi polloi will shy off encroaching on the terrain of &#8216;pro healers&#8217; et al) and far too little focussed on the social challenges of building groups and alliances and seeing the players you have as an asset to be used to your faction&#8217;s best advantage.</p>
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