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	<title>Comments on: Should more social players pay less?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/should-more-social-players-pay-less/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/should-more-social-players-pay-less/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
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		<title>By: Wolfshead</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/should-more-social-players-pay-less/#comment-14680</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wolfshead]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 May 2011 05:13:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5445#comment-14680</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My answer would be &quot;yes&quot; that players that contribute in a positive way to their server community should be rewarded both in-game and with lower fees. I think it&#039;s a great idea.

It&#039;s much like auto insurance. People who have bad driving records pay much more for their insurance than good drivers.

MMO developers need to start realizing the negative cost associated with allowing bad players to ruin the experience of other players.

About 3 years ago I wrote an article entitled: MMO Developers: Community Should Be Your Most Valued Commodity:

http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=126

It seems I was ahead of the curve. :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My answer would be &#8220;yes&#8221; that players that contribute in a positive way to their server community should be rewarded both in-game and with lower fees. I think it&#8217;s a great idea.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s much like auto insurance. People who have bad driving records pay much more for their insurance than good drivers.</p>
<p>MMO developers need to start realizing the negative cost associated with allowing bad players to ruin the experience of other players.</p>
<p>About 3 years ago I wrote an article entitled: MMO Developers: Community Should Be Your Most Valued Commodity:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=126" rel="nofollow">http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=126</a></p>
<p>It seems I was ahead of the curve. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: nugget</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/should-more-social-players-pay-less/#comment-14641</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nugget]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 May 2011 07:38:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5445#comment-14641</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem is, O Teshness, that the true newbie can never play with the veteran and not be a millstone.

They can only be less of a millstone. XD Or a millstone that is worth toting around because eventually you get to carve it into a GIANT TASTY COOKIE OF DOOMY DOOM!

XD

Even when content isn&#039;t gated by gear, it is gated by skill and knowledge. Skill is something newbies may have from day one - just look at FPSes where many of the skills are transferable. But knowledge is not transferable - at least not in the same way within games. And a lot of the time, that knowledge matters.

I guess what I&#039;m (tangentially) again saying is that even if &#039;obvious&#039; gating indicators are removed (gear, attunement quests, etc, all that sor of thing), skill and knowledge will still gate people, and that removing the obvious indicators isn&#039;t always a good thing.

In WoW, if I wanted to nicely tell someone that I didn&#039;t think we would group again (for whatever reason), or really - that we would group at all - I could give them the fig leaf of, &#039;Sorreez, ur gear is not da leet enuff! Mebbe in da futurez!&#039;

In Guild Wars, if someone is simply a very bad or very inexperienced player, and I don&#039;t feel like carrying them... I can&#039;t let them cushion their egos with gear. 

And I miss that cushion.

I don&#039;t mind not being good enough for content, will happily bash my head against it until I figure out better, practise till I play better. But not everyone is like that, nor should they be. But for those who don&#039;t like to hear that, sorry, you&#039;re currently just not good enough, not having gear to hide behind... has got to sting.

...probably enough to stop playing.

In short, I&#039;m not sure the millstone problem is solveable, just that there are many kinds of millstones to pick from.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is, O Teshness, that the true newbie can never play with the veteran and not be a millstone.</p>
<p>They can only be less of a millstone. XD Or a millstone that is worth toting around because eventually you get to carve it into a GIANT TASTY COOKIE OF DOOMY DOOM!</p>
<p>XD</p>
<p>Even when content isn&#8217;t gated by gear, it is gated by skill and knowledge. Skill is something newbies may have from day one &#8211; just look at FPSes where many of the skills are transferable. But knowledge is not transferable &#8211; at least not in the same way within games. And a lot of the time, that knowledge matters.</p>
<p>I guess what I&#8217;m (tangentially) again saying is that even if &#8216;obvious&#8217; gating indicators are removed (gear, attunement quests, etc, all that sor of thing), skill and knowledge will still gate people, and that removing the obvious indicators isn&#8217;t always a good thing.</p>
<p>In WoW, if I wanted to nicely tell someone that I didn&#8217;t think we would group again (for whatever reason), or really &#8211; that we would group at all &#8211; I could give them the fig leaf of, &#8216;Sorreez, ur gear is not da leet enuff! Mebbe in da futurez!&#8217;</p>
<p>In Guild Wars, if someone is simply a very bad or very inexperienced player, and I don&#8217;t feel like carrying them&#8230; I can&#8217;t let them cushion their egos with gear. </p>
<p>And I miss that cushion.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mind not being good enough for content, will happily bash my head against it until I figure out better, practise till I play better. But not everyone is like that, nor should they be. But for those who don&#8217;t like to hear that, sorry, you&#8217;re currently just not good enough, not having gear to hide behind&#8230; has got to sting.</p>
<p>&#8230;probably enough to stop playing.</p>
<p>In short, I&#8217;m not sure the millstone problem is solveable, just that there are many kinds of millstones to pick from.</p>
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		<title>By: Inno</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/should-more-social-players-pay-less/#comment-14634</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Inno]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2011 17:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5445#comment-14634</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would like a griefer model where you can pay extra to kill and loot other players. I would also like to see a subscription model where you pay for advanced tiers of the game such as max crafting; ah limits w/o paying; heroics and raids and definitely the ability to gank same faction. It would cause some to not play but I wouldn&#039;t know if it would have a largely negative effect nor would I care if they left. Something else to consider is using in game gold to buy extra game time which may have negative consequences as well but would help some find ways to spend their extra gold.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like a griefer model where you can pay extra to kill and loot other players. I would also like to see a subscription model where you pay for advanced tiers of the game such as max crafting; ah limits w/o paying; heroics and raids and definitely the ability to gank same faction. It would cause some to not play but I wouldn&#8217;t know if it would have a largely negative effect nor would I care if they left. Something else to consider is using in game gold to buy extra game time which may have negative consequences as well but would help some find ways to spend their extra gold.</p>
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		<title>By: Players as Content &#171; Tish Tosh Tesh</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/should-more-social-players-pay-less/#comment-14633</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Players as Content &#171; Tish Tosh Tesh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2011 12:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5445#comment-14633</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] going to lean in the direction of players being content in MMOs, and if we&#8217;re going to try to incentivize that with kickbacks, discounts or perks, we should probably get rid of levels and other barriers to playing together&#8230; and actually [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] going to lean in the direction of players being content in MMOs, and if we&#8217;re going to try to incentivize that with kickbacks, discounts or perks, we should probably get rid of levels and other barriers to playing together&#8230; and actually [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Azuriel</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/should-more-social-players-pay-less/#comment-14632</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Azuriel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2011 06:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5445#comment-14632</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I do not see how that model could possibly work without a backlash occurring. Voting models are stupid because then it becomes a political campaign. Rule triggers (&quot;is a GM of an X-person guild&quot;) are arbitrary and will get gamed. If I know Bob is getting everything I get, but $10 cheaper, I&#039;m pissed. I could understand a penalty for griefers or whatever, but at that point why not just making griefing impossible (or minimized) within the game world?

Generally speaking, being social is its own reward IRL, and anti-social its own non-reward. You can simulate that in-game like MMOs in ages past, when you had to group to get anywhere. That is not a model that works very well subscription-wise, however, as most people want a single-player option so as to not have to schedule their playtime.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not see how that model could possibly work without a backlash occurring. Voting models are stupid because then it becomes a political campaign. Rule triggers (&#8220;is a GM of an X-person guild&#8221;) are arbitrary and will get gamed. If I know Bob is getting everything I get, but $10 cheaper, I&#8217;m pissed. I could understand a penalty for griefers or whatever, but at that point why not just making griefing impossible (or minimized) within the game world?</p>
<p>Generally speaking, being social is its own reward IRL, and anti-social its own non-reward. You can simulate that in-game like MMOs in ages past, when you had to group to get anywhere. That is not a model that works very well subscription-wise, however, as most people want a single-player option so as to not have to schedule their playtime.</p>
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		<title>By: kiantremayne</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/should-more-social-players-pay-less/#comment-14631</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kiantremayne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2011 05:58:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5445#comment-14631</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What Spinks said. Without actually having hold of the financials, I suspect that the costs of a player actually being online for an extra hour are pretty minimal. The cost of marketing to replace players who leave is more substantial. 

What really eats through money, though, is anything that requires actual human beings. If you take up an hour of a GM&#039;s time per month that&#039;s going to wipe out the subscription you pay. Or to put it another way, if GMs spend just two minutes per day dealing with petitions that Leetkillr is sniping newbies from a rooftop again, then under the subscription model it&#039;s not worth having Leetkillr as a subscriber.

You don&#039;t want to bill per minute of connection and GM ticket - apart from anything else, that means you then have a complicated and expensive billing system to build and run. The trick is to come up with a simple pricing plan that takes all of those costs into account and as far as possible passes them on to the right people without getting too complicated.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Spinks said. Without actually having hold of the financials, I suspect that the costs of a player actually being online for an extra hour are pretty minimal. The cost of marketing to replace players who leave is more substantial. </p>
<p>What really eats through money, though, is anything that requires actual human beings. If you take up an hour of a GM&#8217;s time per month that&#8217;s going to wipe out the subscription you pay. Or to put it another way, if GMs spend just two minutes per day dealing with petitions that Leetkillr is sniping newbies from a rooftop again, then under the subscription model it&#8217;s not worth having Leetkillr as a subscriber.</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t want to bill per minute of connection and GM ticket &#8211; apart from anything else, that means you then have a complicated and expensive billing system to build and run. The trick is to come up with a simple pricing plan that takes all of those costs into account and as far as possible passes them on to the right people without getting too complicated.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/should-more-social-players-pay-less/#comment-14630</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2011 04:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5445#comment-14630</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[But a lot of longterm players will cite their social network as one of the key factors in their continued subscription. So anything a dev could do to boost the likelihood of someone building a good social network in their game is going to pay off, probably by quite a large amount.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But a lot of longterm players will cite their social network as one of the key factors in their continued subscription. So anything a dev could do to boost the likelihood of someone building a good social network in their game is going to pay off, probably by quite a large amount.</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/should-more-social-players-pay-less/#comment-14629</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tesh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2011 22:53:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5445#comment-14629</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To that end, I&#039;d suspect that a social player would cost more than a nonsocial one, as they are likely online more (gotta hold that guild together), using server resources.

That said, how exactly does one calculate the benefit they bring to the financials?  And does this all go down the rabbit hole of charging per minute of connection, for every GM ticket and so on?  I&#039;m not sure that&#039;s the right direction to go.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To that end, I&#8217;d suspect that a social player would cost more than a nonsocial one, as they are likely online more (gotta hold that guild together), using server resources.</p>
<p>That said, how exactly does one calculate the benefit they bring to the financials?  And does this all go down the rabbit hole of charging per minute of connection, for every GM ticket and so on?  I&#8217;m not sure that&#8217;s the right direction to go.</p>
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		<title>By: kiantremayne</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/should-more-social-players-pay-less/#comment-14627</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kiantremayne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2011 22:06:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5445#comment-14627</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You always want to maximise profit (in an enlightened manner, that is - gouging the customer isn&#039;t actually a great long term business strategy). The trick here is to realise that profit is what the customer pays you minus what servicing the customer costs... and since some customers cost more (but may be willing to pay more) and others may be cheaper to look after but can&#039;t fork over as much cash, you really want a pricing strategy that copes with both sides of the equation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You always want to maximise profit (in an enlightened manner, that is &#8211; gouging the customer isn&#8217;t actually a great long term business strategy). The trick here is to realise that profit is what the customer pays you minus what servicing the customer costs&#8230; and since some customers cost more (but may be willing to pay more) and others may be cheaper to look after but can&#8217;t fork over as much cash, you really want a pricing strategy that copes with both sides of the equation.</p>
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		<title>By: MMO Pricing and Externalities &#171; Tremayne&#039;s Law</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/should-more-social-players-pay-less/#comment-14626</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MMO Pricing and Externalities &#171; Tremayne&#039;s Law]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2011 22:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=5445#comment-14626</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] lot of blog commentary today about  Gabe Newell&#8217;s comments on pricing games &#8211; props to Spinks for drawing my attention to the topic. Since two of my nerdy obssessions are MMOs and economics, I [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] lot of blog commentary today about  Gabe Newell&#8217;s comments on pricing games &#8211; props to Spinks for drawing my attention to the topic. Since two of my nerdy obssessions are MMOs and economics, I [...]</p>
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