The first MMO I played, DaoC, didn’t have separate PvE and PvP servers. (I know the US side got full PvP servers later on but they were always something of a curiousity.) But there was plenty of open world PvP. It just meant that some areas were designated for PvP and others weren’t, and there were plenty of incentives to get out there into the battlefield which people generally did with enthusiasm.
Games that included PvP servers back then were specifically for players who wanted all PvP all of the time and everywhere, even in the newbie zones. This tended to result in the classic vanilla WoW PvP experience of teams slaughtering each other outside raid zones as they tried to gather for raid nights. This is usually known as ganking but we have to assume that all the players involved enjoyed it because that was what they signed up to, dammit. (Compare with the DaoC experience where some raids were located inside the realm and others, specifically labelled as PvP raid dungeons, were in the frontier zones. So raid groups could decide if they wanted the chance of a PvP fight on raid night or not.)
I always felt that mixing the PvE and PvP players was generally a good idea, and encouraged people to experiment with different playing styles, but that all PvP everywhere was something better suited to some specific games than others.
Anyhow, this is a long rambling introduction to a graph posted at mmo-champion today – I’m talking about the third graph down which plots Nr Characters vs Honor Kills by realm type. ie. does more PvP actually go on in PvP realms than PvE realms? The answer is that it’s only really noticeable statistically on the lower end of PvP enthusiasm. Hardcore PvP players get most of their kills in battlegrounds, not in open world PvP, and they’re only very slightly more likely to be on PvP as PvE servers. The numbers can be a bit misleading – world PvP can be significant without being responsible for huge numbers of kills, but I think it shows how the WoW experience is getting increasingly instanced so that it makes less and less difference which type of server you pick.
These days, you’d have to be a noodle to pick a PvP server to level on for the world PvP experience, and I suspect most people pick them because they either feel that PvP server players are more competitive/ hardcore/ likely to have more successful PvE also, or they have friends there. The fact that you can transfer to a PvP server from a PvE server (which originally was not the case) has also diluted the idea of the pure PvP server player who was something of a hardcore badass frontiersman who levelled several characters through the Vietnam of Stranglethorn etc etc
I seem to see more people saying ‘I didn’t really want to pick a PvP server but ….’ than grinning gankers, but who knows? I think the DaoC model really had a lot more to recommend it, at least we all played together more or less and people settled on the type of play they preferred but with constant opportunities to mix it up. And it’s not a million miles away from EVE, which seems to be travelling towards making the newbie areas safer and leaving the 0.0 areas free for all — I don’t think hardcore players need to fret about this, the real hardcore PvP was never played out in newbie zones anyway.
Welcome to Spinksville! 
I can remember every time I got ganked as a lowbie on the PvP server I was on resulting in an hour long rant to my friends on vent about how much I hated them for picking a PvP server and how I’d be so much happier on a PvE server. Because really… that’s the majority of what a PvP server has to offer, just getting ganked while leveling. I can think of only a single time I ever had a cool/positive world pvp experience in the entire time I played WoW. I’d erase that one time from my memory in a heartbeat if it meant I also got to erase the hundreds of times I got ganked and hours of my life that got wasted running back to my corpse over… and over… and over again.
So, I’m all for the idea of combining servers and just having designated areas for PvP. As long as it means that if all you want to do is reach max level asap, you can. Without getting ganked.
U mad bro? Yes, bro. Yes, I am. (And I don’t even play anymore)
I couldn’t say it any better myself. I finally got fed up, left my friends and play on a PVE server, happily leveling. . . except the one time I accidently targetted a player with their pvp flag up and got camped in firelands. . .
I h8 pvp. Getting ganked isnt fun.
well said, mostly. Any game I’ve played that has open world pvp turns into a gank fest with bored max level players camping low level areas to get easy kills on people who can’t defend themselves.
Any game with dedicated pvp areas and pve areas sees the pvp areas deserted as there’s nothing there for gankers (people who’re not gankers avoid them like the plague).
We see this in WoW in Wintergrasp, which is deserted except during battles and the occasional very nervous miner.
I don’t want to pay for having half the gameworld closed to me because of gankers, or to be constantly ganked. That’s why I don’t play on a pvp realm, let’s not turn every realm into an effective pvp realm by forcing pvp on players because without opening themselves to ganking they can’t do much of anything (even if in theory you could level without ever going there, in reality it’ll be different).
They can stick it where the sun don’t shine, as far as I’m concerned. I moved across to a pvp server to be with friends ….the entire concept is a joke. I’ll be xferring back to pve when my ‘only once every 3 days’ realm transfer restriction is over.
It’s absolute bs and an utterly mind-numbing waste of time for anyone who’s not fully geared – at least on Frostmourne, it is, where Horde seem to be so infinitely miffed and touchy about the fact that they’re second-rate on that server, that their level 85’s go out of they way to ‘get even’ by going to low level alliance training areas and ganking all the quest givers, sometimes sitting there for hours just repeating the process to waste everyone’s time.
What heroes horde are on Frostmourne (not)!
PvP realms? Total joke.
Honestly, I think having PVP servers is a tick-box feature than any actual practical use. It doesn’t matter if you offer arena combat, battlegrounds, ladders, bracketing and exclusive equipment. If the game doesn’t have PvP servers then PVP players won’t play it, even if they don’t do any PVP outside those custom zones.
I really don’t think that’s a proven fact. You don’t have to actually label your servers PvP or PvE if there’s only one type, after all.
and if it doesn’t have ways to NOT get ganked, those who don’t like being ganked won’t play it…
I’d rather do without the gankers, there’s a million Korean pvp grinders for them.
I kind of see it differently. Im on a RP-PvP server. For the most part in WoW these days world pvp is dead as you have no reason to really leave SW or Ogrim once you hit 85. I havent had that bad of an experience on my server. The server balance is fairly close so it isnt a population issue. Most people simply want to either get their questing or farming done. But here is the thing. To me, a strictly pve server is really damned boring. There is no looking around to make sure your clear. IT’s really kind of cool knowing that you may at anytime get jumped. This happens most of the time from lv 65 on out though. Anyways. I figure if you dont want to be bothered with the inherent risk..play on a pve server. Firends or no, it isnt worth your time if all your doing is wanting to get your grinds done in peace. But I like a little danger to mix things up. Look UI mobs are boring as hell. They dont have tactics. At best, they try to run at x% of health. They dont really attempt to counter your abilities and its always a straight on fight. I love BGs though most of the people I get random group with really dont work as a team. Still its fun because its chaos. That is what world pvp is to me, chaos and I thrive in it.
Age of Conan had wicked and put the fear of god in you pvp servers. You learned to use stealth and watch your back always. You also learned to hit those hotkeys fast and furious, having cc and stunlocks ready to roll fast. Open battle is epic. Especially if you have opposing guilds going after eachother in a battle royale. World pvp is great because there are no constricting boundaries like a BG. I do believe the reason world pvp died so badly on WoW (though it does still exist) is because territores arent reall contested. You can always go to a different zone to get the same stuff. Total avoidance of territorialism in its primal best.
I dont expect most people to understand this. most people like to quest in peace or gather and farm in peace. This is ok. Keep it to a pve server. Let the tension be there for those of us who do enjyo world pvp. And while the number may preclude that activity isnt there, the amount of people on the various pvp servers still suggests its active. I know in our guild twice a week we go march as an army to storm the gates of whatever city and get into serious fights. Its fun to us. If it isnt fun to some…wrong server. It’s the risk you take. Please understand I am not in any way disrespecting those who love pve. It is in fact the money maker for any mmo game. Thats why the majority of mmo features are geared toward pve players. Nothing wrong with it at all. But a lot of people enjoy going to war. I see horde raids on alliance towns ona regular basis and vice versa for alliance. It makes for a much more not realistic but intense gaming experience.
For the record, yes I have been both ganked and griefed numerous times. That is the price. But I am willing to pay it. I do the same in return. I pay to be able to go into the world and fight something more interesting than mindless zombies with no technique or real ability (proof there are people who can level to 85 in nothing but grey or white items). So I hope it never gets taken away. I hope the risk is always there for those who wish to fight and take the risk. Also, pvp players go to pvp servers in the hopes of finding like minded pvpers. If it didnt exist they would play.
You can actually go storm the gates of a city on a PvE server too, you know?
But yeah, I take your point. I just think that there’s so little world PvP going on that it implies most PvP server players don’t actually want that style of play at all. I’m also not sure that the whole daily quest setup is all that much more fun on PvP servers where it just sets people up for ganking — it’d be better to tweak those quests to include a PvP element for those servers to encourage world PvP rather than just giving them the same grind setup that PvE servers get. Whatever people actually say, it’s either a minority interest or the rewards aren’t good enough to encourage it (probably both, tbh). So I’m imagining mixed servers with more opportunities for world PvP, more rewards for world PvP, but allowing people who aren’t in the mood or just don’t enjoy that to play in an area where they won’t be gank fodder. (I bolded the bit about rewards because part of the deal with a mixed server is that you encourage people strongly to give the PvP areas a go but without forcing it, which should also lead to more active world PvP for everyone who enjoys that sort of thing.)
The RvR setup did work well for PvP because some of the rewards were realm wide rather than purely personal.
Well put. The problem nowadays with PVE servers is they are built for lazy players. Plain and simple. That fear of being ganked promotes learning your class fast, learing to grab friends, learning how to avoid enemies as you go. Anyone can learn a fight that never changes in a raid, but to learn to PVP and to exist with friends requires true skill.
I remember, coming from a mud/eq background of having never engaged in PvP, being very skeptical of DAoC when I first started playing it. I was scared that my progress would stop unless I engaged in PvP; I just wanted a persistent RPG to play! But the music of Hibernia was entrancing. I was assured at higher levels, that while it wasn’t completely optional, you could get by just putting your head down and eating a gank or two there. Before that advice ever became relevant, however, a Call to Arms rippled through our alliance. At level 30 I traveled out to Dun Something and stood amongst a much more purple crowd to defend some keep. I have no idea if relics were at play; what I remember is that everyone was lined up on the back ramparts, waiting as we heard the gate weaken. They don’t have those keeps anymore, the round ones about knee high. The door hit 1%. I heard the sound of bows drawing, and I hit the key to hold a shot as well (in retrospect, I’m really unclear on that mechanic. I could be creating memories.) Then the doors split and there was a great “whoosh” of many .wav files on top of each other. Arrows flew, and I didn’t really see anything. It’s possible that many dirty Saracen had their final meal half an hour before the doors split, or more likely they saw a defended keep and ran off, leaving a lone Armsman to melee out that last percent. It was as PREPOSTEROUS as Drek’thar’s final hoot. I don’t know, that moment just sticks in my mind. For eight years after that I thought I loved PvP, and then the I realized it was RvR that got me.
My sorceress resembles that dirty saracen comment! But it was the same for me too, I wasn’t sure about PvP but got encouraged to get stuck in and help take keeps with my guild. And when I was wandering around Forest Sauvage as a lowbie and got ganked, it was so easy to put the word out and see a bunch of high level guildies (plus whoever else was hanging around the keep bored) come out to find the lone shadowblade responsible and clear the area. Later, I’d go roaming solo myself too, making the roads clear for lower level questing.
I think it wasn’t just the RvR, it was the sense that even if you got ganked, your team would be looking out for you AND if you ganked a lowbie, you knew some high levels would come out looking for action so it was quite a good tactic to get things going.
I do agree with your statement Spinks. The problem is, mmo’s in general ar nto designed for pvp as a whole. That fails to make money. So it honestly is up to the players to create a world pvp environment. PvE server have the option to flag or unflag depending on mood. For a pvper like myself, I liek the risk all the time, even if it turns into a gankfest.
I think though, resources drive current world pvp at the end. Take Uldum for instance. A huge abundant supply of Elementium. It’s the richest zone out there. On my server, people are always contesting the resources because it is really needed for the andgame crafting. It’s fougth over constantly. Nothing worse than claim jumpers to a stout dwarf like me lol. It creates the environment where you arent grinding quests perhaps but where resources are a premium. This in fact btw is what drives alot of real world conflicts lol.
I do agree not enough world pvp happens. I think alot of this is attributed to the redesigning of the game as a whole down to 2 faction cities in the end. There is no need for conflict when you can stay hearthed at one city forever. TBH I was very disappointed in this. It told me Blizz has no desire to support world pvp and infact discourages it by bottling the 2 factions to 2 major city hubs. Now granted yes we can roam anywhere. But why bother? They didnt outright say no world pvp, but they did discourage it by making it so people would get lazy.
Personally I dont pvp just for rewards. I need the rewards to stay competetive agianst my advesaries and be able to put up a good fight. But I really pvp because it’s a challenge. It makes me have to think fast and react fast or die. That is a reward in itself when I have been attacked or attack and come out the winner. Sometimes, my reward has been making things so rough for a few people that they gang up on me with 4 or 5 opponents to me alone and camp me for an hour. That is a crowning achievement to know I am that dangerous. But that is only my personal viewpoint. Anyways interesting conversation and you bring up thought provoking questions!
~Mhorgirm
World PvP on “Frostwolf” was definitely almost not happening when I was still playing. It happened sometimes on the Isle of Quel’Danas but during levelling Horde and Alliance were ignoring each other.
Realm vs Realm / Border Kingdoms / Ettenmoors is my preferred kind of PvP. I don’t mind world pvp but see above. Maybe people wouldn’t mind it either if they were used to my Frostwolf experience of World PvP. That’s an entirely different quality than getting killed and looted in Ultima Online.
Arena PvP is something I usually avoid. That’s GW’s and WoW’s almost e-sports style pvp. Bleh!
Battlegrounds and GW’s Alliance Battles are somewhere in between:
The major difference to RvR is that these instances cannot be entered and left at leisure but have a queue to start. It is also always very intense nonstop mass PvP. In the more “worldy” type of PvP I prefer you can have breaks or go somewhere else where no player raids are killing each other and fight smaller groups.
Battlegrounds were done to give a measure of balance and server stability and gameplay quality: Most games and our current technology just can’t handle too many people in one spot before it becomes a laggy mess.
But many games use dynamic layers of their world when needed by now. I think this would be a proper solution for open world RvR style PvP zones.
IMO the reason battlegrounds were always more popular than ‘world pvp’ has to do with respawn locations and timers.
In WoW (originally) the best world PvP usually seemed to occur in Hillsbrad – that’s because the faction opposed cities are close enough (with corresponding respawn locations that are safe) that you could go have that fight and it was fun – and when you were tired of it – well you could hang out in the inn for a little bit.
They killed that with the insane guard revamp however – and (from what I could see) random world PvP kind of died along with it.
The second part of the equation that always tilted PvP to the battlegrounds was you didn’t have to wait *forever* to respawn. In the world PvP battles – after you died once or twice the respawn timer became … well not fun is the only way I can describe it.
For one on one – it was fine – for really epic battles… it kind of sucked. So the BG’s with the 20 second respawn timers and close prox graveyards were more popular.
The main concern I have is for the people who literally will not play on a server that allows any kind of non-consensual PvP because they are genuinely frightened by it. For players like that, and I have met quite a few in various games, it doesn’t matter that PvP only occurs in designated areas. They fear that they might unwittingly stray into one of those areas and be attacked.
I think that such fears are largely ungrounded, but nevertheless they should be respected in gameworlds that are primarily designed for and aimed at consumer of PvE gameplay. Put the PvP in instances and everyone knows exactly where they are.
DCUO has a very novel take on the whole thing in that both PvE players and PvP players inhabit a common gameworld but the server somehow phases so that each side remains unaware that the other is there. Not sure how that works but it’s an interesting idea.
Replace “genuinely frightened by non-consensual PvP” with “find non-consenusal PvP infinitely more tedious than endlessly – and pointlessly – grinding kill ten rats dailies” and I’m right there with you.
It’s not about fear for me – and I have no problem with consensual PvP – it’s about knowing that when I log in, I can do what I want to do. Throw in non-consensual PvP and it is entirely possible that one jackass could turn my game time into providing target practice. I’m also not a terribly competitive person. I’ve had fun playing in arenas and battlegrounds in WoW (and still occasionally hop into battlegrounds), but there’s something about world PvP that just turns me off. I think its the potentially non-consensual part. And I play on PvE realms and am far more likely to help out opposite faction people I run across than stand around and laugh if they’re in trouble. I don’t really take the faction thing seriously.
It’s not a fear thing with me either; it’s about control over my experience. I want to do what I want to do when I want to do it, and not have someone be able to infringe upon my doing my thing. If I sign up for a PvP match or other consensual PvP activity, then it’s under my control (and I can opt out at any time of my choosing).
One can make the argument that by signing up for a PvP server, you consent to being ready to be attacked at any time, and I agree, which is why I would never play on one ;).
What I’m trying to argue here is that I don’t think all PvP all the time is a good model for a mixed server either. But having some zones where it is with decent incentives to go there could make for a better experience all around.
Spinks, I see two basic problems with the incentive model, which lots of games have tried:
1) It’s an admission that “PvP in this game is boring, so we have to bribe people to show up”;
2) it usually doesn’t work. Best case, people hold their noses and grind it out until they get the shiny, then abandon the zone forever. Worst case, they figure out some way to game the system (by trading wins or whatever) until they get their shinies and abandon the zone, thus leaving both the people who like PvP and the people who don’t unhappy.
The basic pattern applies to other incentives aimed at driving people into playstyles they don’t enjoy – I know plenty of people who play City of Heroes who don’t care about Achievements in general but who go out and make sure they get the handful that provide a combat advantage, then ignore the rest. Ditto people playing Rift who aren’t big Explorers but who’ll check a wiki to find the locations of the hidden treasure caches in each zone, grab them, then go back to enjoying themselves. I’ll be quite surprised if TOR doesn’t see similar results with its Social Point system..
Non consensual PvP isn’t about fear for me either, I just get really annoyed at being ganked( snarling and steam coming out of my ears mad). I play to relax and explore in PvE I do not care to be killed out of the blue allowing some jerk to get his jollies ( being available for that just encourages those sorts). I started on a PvP server it was sorta fun. I do like battlegrounds I can spend weeks where that is all I pretty much do.
Back when players ran to instances it made a difference. I have fond memories of the battles that could start outside Blackrock Mountain. And some frustrating ones as well when we were trying to get started on MC and people kept dying. But if I had to pick, I’d pick the more interesting world, where sometimes I get attacked along my journey, and of course I get to attack other travelers.
I have no desire to be forced into mandatory world PVP. It’s bad enough that a guild I was in at the time insisted during BC that you HAD to run BGs in order to get that one movement-freeing trinket in order to raid — which, surprise surprise, became irrelevant if you were human in another patch. At least in BGs, there’s the choice on what to expect. I signed up for a PVE server for a reason and if mandatory world PVP suddenly becomes the only way to progress for better gear outside raids (or is the level you need to get to get INTO raids), then I want no part of it.
How can I respond to this without going tl;dr on you?
It’s true that DAoC didn’t have (and arguably didn’t need) PvP and PvE servers distinct from another; but then, the player demographics and “mmo climate” have changed drastically since then. I assert a new separation is needed. Consider these new server type:
Server Type 1: In it for the Phat Lewt.
Server Type 2: In it for the journey.
Pingback: A new distinction. « thade's Hammer
My issue with world PvP was being a level 20 rogue, still new to the game, being ganked over and over by level 60s in Redridge Mountains while I was trying to quest. That is not fun in the least. I left that poor rogue lying dead after being killed the umpteenth time, and rerolled on a PvE server.
Now to address Spink’s actual question:
1. What kind of incentives/reasons would it take to get people to voluntarily spend lots of time in a PvP zone? Invariably it becomes a max level zone, because the lower level people will get tired of being constantly ganked.
2. Would they be timed events like Tol Barad and Wintergrasp, or more dynamic, like the three locations in Hellfire Peninsula?
3. I think separating the hardcore PvP mentality from the non-hardcore PvP mentality is a good thing. Personality conflicts have caused many a rage quit. I doubt Blizzard wants people to rage quit the game entirely.
I’d love to see a new line of PvP progression, involving scenarios (ala Blizzcon) with PvP objectives. These could be scattered across dozens of places in the world, and by using instanced technology, could be mini world events where players of both factions face off. Rather than battlegrounds/arenas, where the goals are simple and generic, more focus could be set on diverging targets, like rescuing Night Elf hostages vs. capturing lumber for Orgrimmar.
The tools are all there for some fantastic world PvP, while still allowing those not interested (such as low-level questing characters) to continue undisrupted.
I never considered being attacked by a player a gazillion levels above my lowbie character true PvP.
Which was why I always avoided PvP servers and rolled on PvE. Then I satisfied my PvP in designated areas/battlegrounds. I had a lot of fun times in WoW battlegrounds until it all became slanted toward arenas and achievements. Then I left for WAR, which I loved so much it was pathetic. Then that took more turns for the worse.
Now, I avoid PvP now because there aren’t any games at the moment that inspire me to take part in it.
Personally, I hate PvP realms. With how empty the world is now, there are only two times when I’ve encountered world PVP:
1) When I’m leveling an alt and some high-level happens to swing through and pound my face in the dirt.
2) When I’m running dailies and some guild is lying in wait to gank people running dailies.
Problem is, the game’s philosophy doesn’t tailor well toward world PvP. Everything is about the quest, the instance, the reward… People generally focus their play toward that. Otherwise, you’re falling behind, and you’re going to “lose”. (ie. You don’t get to play unless you do your chores.) There’s no reward for getting together a gang and attacking other gangs. It’s a diversion in WoW, not a supported part of the game. (Allowing and supporting are two very different things.)
If you like world PvP but it’s not happening on your realm, your choices are
a) Pay to transfer (including alts, because most of the time, you want those on the same realm).
b) Don’t.
Alternatively, if you’re getting ganked, your choices are
a) Pay to transfer.
b) Stop playing.
c) Accept it.
d) Level up through dungeons, get some good gear, and start ganking lowbies to restore your crumbled self-esteem.
Personally, I think the problem is the difficulty of cross-realm activity. If you like world PvP, you should pick a PvP realm, but how do you know which one? It’s not like there’s a “world PvP ranking” anywhere. Pick wrong, or have the realm dynamic change… Tough luck! And on the other hand, if your friend likes world PvP and you like your friend… You have to choose between your friend and your preferred realm. Not a great choice.
They’re really close to solving the problem, but they need two things:
1) Cross-realm communication OUTSIDE of RealID. (A pseuodnym is all we need to make that happen.)
2) Free realm transfers.
3*) Cross-realm guilds. (Or some similar kind of social grouping.)
What will this do? Well, if you end up on the wrong realm (for whatever reason)… you can move. The PvE’ers will go to PvE and the world-PvP’ers will go to PvP. Low-population realms will fill up or empty out (allowing for merges where necessary.) If your (non-RealID) friends prefer a different playstyle, you can still have group chats, join them in raids, etc. If you change your mind later, move over! You can always move back.
I would predict (based on the aforementioned metrics) that we would end up with much fewer PvP realms, but that world PvP on said realms would increase substantially. Sounds like a win for everyone.
The point is that world PvP isn’t really happening much on any realm.
But is that because nobody wants to, or because the world is too empty to make it worthwhile? More data would be good.
I would argue that it’s perhaps a result of the player base being so separated so some players who might actually enjoy world PvP if they had a fun group to do it with and some suitable structure get funnelled into PvE servers because of fear of something that won’t often happen.
eg. I’m going to pick a PvE server if I get a choice, not because I’m terrified of PvP but because I suspect the PvP servers will have a more concentrated selection of raving PvP fanatics than I’d be comfortable with. A mixed server would not bother me, and I suspect people who have concerns about it would find it would work out also.
How come nobody ever typed /1 or /g and asked for help when getting griefed? It’s a great way to build community, which is sorely lacking these days.
As a PvP player, I didn’t really mind PvE players minding their own business, even if a battle was raging around them. What I did mind was PvP players flaunting their invulnerability until they were at the optimal situation for an ambush. And even if did repel them, all they needed to do was to wait five minutes and try again. At least with PvP-always-enabled servers I could pre-emptively attack them.
Mind you, this was back in the day when getting the initiative could let you finish off your opponent in a few seconds. I don’t know how much it matters nowadays when even PvP servers give you invulnerability due to flying mounts and the health amounts are large enough that you can recover from the loss of initiative.
Ex.: The downfall of RuneScape, into the laughing stock it is today, was getting rid of the PvE (only) option.
There are many people that find PvP immoral/hurtful/harmful/etc., and as such having regions of the game be PvP minimizes the playability of that game.
*Take RS for instance:
The Forest is the PvP area, so once you got to a certain level you were basically done as a PvEer. Higher Quests needed you to go into the PvP area to complete them, which PvEers were/are not going to do.
– So, yes…. PvE is a needed option, whether it be a complete server or an option for the character.