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	<title>Comments on: [SWTOR] Flashpoints, romances, endgame [spoilers]</title>
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	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/swtor-flashpoints-and-the-disconnect-between-endgame-and-story-flow-spoilers/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
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		<title>By: [Question of the Day] What would you like to see in MMO endgames? &#171; Welcome to Spinksville!</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/swtor-flashpoints-and-the-disconnect-between-endgame-and-story-flow-spoilers/#comment-17359</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[[Question of the Day] What would you like to see in MMO endgames? &#171; Welcome to Spinksville!]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 10:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6154#comment-17359</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] week, I wrote a post that touched briefly on the SWTOR endgame and it generated some great discussion in comments about what sort of things players liked to do at [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] week, I wrote a post that touched briefly on the SWTOR endgame and it generated some great discussion in comments about what sort of things players liked to do at [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Story Ding &#171; Tremayne&#039;s Law</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/swtor-flashpoints-and-the-disconnect-between-endgame-and-story-flow-spoilers/#comment-17337</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Story Ding &#171; Tremayne&#039;s Law]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2012 18:19:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6154#comment-17337</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] my story took several tough fights where I felt I had to play my character well to succeed. Spinks has already commented on this &#8211; the story quests in SWTOR are not faceroll easy if done as intended, on level and solo. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] my story took several tough fights where I felt I had to play my character well to succeed. Spinks has already commented on this &#8211; the story quests in SWTOR are not faceroll easy if done as intended, on level and solo. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: foolsage</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/swtor-flashpoints-and-the-disconnect-between-endgame-and-story-flow-spoilers/#comment-17332</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[foolsage]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Feb 2012 17:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6154#comment-17332</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yup, and even Quinn&#039;s story arc is gated by the main plot. I&#039;m certain of this because my Sith Juggernaut finished Act 1 a couple of days ago, using Vette as his companion (now replaced with Jaesa!)... and suddenly Quinn had tow or three conversations waiting. He hadn&#039;t had any affection increases; it was the main plot that opened these options. I believe I&#039;ve seen the same thing on every one of my chars at some point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yup, and even Quinn&#8217;s story arc is gated by the main plot. I&#8217;m certain of this because my Sith Juggernaut finished Act 1 a couple of days ago, using Vette as his companion (now replaced with Jaesa!)&#8230; and suddenly Quinn had tow or three conversations waiting. He hadn&#8217;t had any affection increases; it was the main plot that opened these options. I believe I&#8217;ve seen the same thing on every one of my chars at some point.</p>
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		<title>By: Aanar</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/swtor-flashpoints-and-the-disconnect-between-endgame-and-story-flow-spoilers/#comment-17331</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aanar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Feb 2012 17:51:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6154#comment-17331</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Quote: &quot;why do we expect an “end-game” to these games?&quot;

Having played EQ1 (which I consider the first modern MMO), I can give you a little background about what happened.

Originally in the released game there were only 2 &quot;level cap&quot; dungeons and 2 dragons for raiding and that was it for &quot;endgame&quot; content.  It really was more about the leveling.

At one point fairly early on they paniced a little because people were leveling &quot;too&quot; fast -- they worried they&#039;d quit once they got to level 50.  So they changed it so at certain points the exp needed to level took a big jump (the so called hell levels).

Nothing was instanced, so gathering up BIS (best in slot) gear took a long time.  Nothing was BoP (bind on pickup) so if you had the cash, you could buy stuff.  Pretty much what happened was a group would camp a certain named mob in each dungeon so they could get him as soon as he spawned.  When someone left, they&#039;d just shout out for a replacement.  People would sit at the zone-in waiting for a group.  The most covetted drops (like the flowing black silk sash which wsa the only item that gave melee haste) usually had a waiting list of people to come in.

When the dragons spawned, people would shout out to gather up as many people as they could since the only limit to how many people you could bring was how lagged out the server would get (around 30 or so back then).

Later they added the first real raids (plane of hate and plane of fear) as a way to add more content for level 45-50 people did.  You lost exp when you died so it wasn&#039;t unusual to lose a few levels during a messy raid where you wiped alot.

Leveling was so slow and the gameplay of most classes so basic, there wasn&#039;t very many people that had level-cap alts.

Really the purpose of raiding / endgame content is to just keep you subscribed to get your ~$15 / mo]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quote: &#8220;why do we expect an “end-game” to these games?&#8221;</p>
<p>Having played EQ1 (which I consider the first modern MMO), I can give you a little background about what happened.</p>
<p>Originally in the released game there were only 2 &#8220;level cap&#8221; dungeons and 2 dragons for raiding and that was it for &#8220;endgame&#8221; content.  It really was more about the leveling.</p>
<p>At one point fairly early on they paniced a little because people were leveling &#8220;too&#8221; fast &#8212; they worried they&#8217;d quit once they got to level 50.  So they changed it so at certain points the exp needed to level took a big jump (the so called hell levels).</p>
<p>Nothing was instanced, so gathering up BIS (best in slot) gear took a long time.  Nothing was BoP (bind on pickup) so if you had the cash, you could buy stuff.  Pretty much what happened was a group would camp a certain named mob in each dungeon so they could get him as soon as he spawned.  When someone left, they&#8217;d just shout out for a replacement.  People would sit at the zone-in waiting for a group.  The most covetted drops (like the flowing black silk sash which wsa the only item that gave melee haste) usually had a waiting list of people to come in.</p>
<p>When the dragons spawned, people would shout out to gather up as many people as they could since the only limit to how many people you could bring was how lagged out the server would get (around 30 or so back then).</p>
<p>Later they added the first real raids (plane of hate and plane of fear) as a way to add more content for level 45-50 people did.  You lost exp when you died so it wasn&#8217;t unusual to lose a few levels during a messy raid where you wiped alot.</p>
<p>Leveling was so slow and the gameplay of most classes so basic, there wasn&#8217;t very many people that had level-cap alts.</p>
<p>Really the purpose of raiding / endgame content is to just keep you subscribed to get your ~$15 / mo</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/swtor-flashpoints-and-the-disconnect-between-endgame-and-story-flow-spoilers/#comment-17327</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tesh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2012 18:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6154#comment-17327</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m all for good games that have endings.  I do love me some offline J/WRPGs, after all.  It&#039;s just not something that MMOs do well (I figure they should be about player stories, not a dev narrative), and *endings* don&#039;t play well with the subscription model.  Something like a Guild Wars model would fit better.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m all for good games that have endings.  I do love me some offline J/WRPGs, after all.  It&#8217;s just not something that MMOs do well (I figure they should be about player stories, not a dev narrative), and *endings* don&#8217;t play well with the subscription model.  Something like a Guild Wars model would fit better.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Jones who is blogless</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/swtor-flashpoints-and-the-disconnect-between-endgame-and-story-flow-spoilers/#comment-17323</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Simon Jones who is blogless]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:39:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6154#comment-17323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While I enjoyed the SWOTOR levelling game as well, some of the praise here kinda gelled something in my mind. 

I&#039;m thinking we&#039;ve set the bar for what constitutes strong storytelling and characterisation in CRPG&#039;s a little low. Compared with something like Bastion or on a similar THIS IS A GREAT BIG GAME scale, Red Dead Redemption, for example, I&#039;m wondering if we should be a bit harsher on the genre.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I enjoyed the SWOTOR levelling game as well, some of the praise here kinda gelled something in my mind. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m thinking we&#8217;ve set the bar for what constitutes strong storytelling and characterisation in CRPG&#8217;s a little low. Compared with something like Bastion or on a similar THIS IS A GREAT BIG GAME scale, Red Dead Redemption, for example, I&#8217;m wondering if we should be a bit harsher on the genre.</p>
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		<title>By: Zellviren</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/swtor-flashpoints-and-the-disconnect-between-endgame-and-story-flow-spoilers/#comment-17321</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zellviren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2012 10:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6154#comment-17321</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That’s a very good point.

In traditional RPG’s, the idea was to “complete” the game at level cap and the journey there was the content.  In MMORPG’s, the endgame is where the content starts and everything before it is of less importance.

I agree, the shift back in SW:TOR was welcome and is far better than the meaningless nonsense that Blizzard has gone for.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That’s a very good point.</p>
<p>In traditional RPG’s, the idea was to “complete” the game at level cap and the journey there was the content.  In MMORPG’s, the endgame is where the content starts and everything before it is of less importance.</p>
<p>I agree, the shift back in SW:TOR was welcome and is far better than the meaningless nonsense that Blizzard has gone for.</p>
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		<title>By: Zellviren</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/swtor-flashpoints-and-the-disconnect-between-endgame-and-story-flow-spoilers/#comment-17320</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zellviren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2012 10:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6154#comment-17320</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Every time a character dings, if your only option is to raid or PvP I feel a bit disappointed.  What I really hoped to see was for my ship to be more customizable on the inside, a form of player housing that could be developed far more than just “being there”.  Considering I almost always log out onboard my ship, it would be nice to make it more homely.

Some examples might be having it provide a rest bonus beyond experience, something that helps you craft, or gives you a timed presence bonus.  The Legacy system could also be built into this and things like a medicinal droid (mainly for repairs) or the ability to get craft bonuses would be nice.

Crafting itself should have been developed as its own endgame, and it really isn’t – it just polished the streamlined turd that it inherited from World of Warcraft.  Obviously this isn’t all that a crafting system could be, and it could have played into the player ship idea.

With all of those weird factions, groups, splits and hegemonies in the galaxy, I’m amazed to see no reputation system make it into the game.  Again, this could easily be developed into its own endgame for those who enjoy that type of thing, or those chasing rare craft or mission patterns as well as open-slot gear.

I’d have LOVED to have seen an RP interface to actually promote RP communities, servers and guilds.  You know, something like MRP or GHI making it into the game as default rather than relying on websites to both design and drive your RP gaming.

Companion development could have been far more in-depth, using them to both develop your crafting abilities as well as actually having them interrelate and interact with one another at endgame.  They start off with certain bonuses, but the ability to work with them to change it would have been appreciated.

I’m at work so can’t really go into it, but that’s some of the things I’d have enjoyed seeing available.  Some of the bare bones are in there, I just like the idea of the potential being developed for those that want to play with their friends in an aesthetic they like (Star Wars galaxy), but have meaningful things to do that don’t require dungeon/warfront grinds.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every time a character dings, if your only option is to raid or PvP I feel a bit disappointed.  What I really hoped to see was for my ship to be more customizable on the inside, a form of player housing that could be developed far more than just “being there”.  Considering I almost always log out onboard my ship, it would be nice to make it more homely.</p>
<p>Some examples might be having it provide a rest bonus beyond experience, something that helps you craft, or gives you a timed presence bonus.  The Legacy system could also be built into this and things like a medicinal droid (mainly for repairs) or the ability to get craft bonuses would be nice.</p>
<p>Crafting itself should have been developed as its own endgame, and it really isn’t – it just polished the streamlined turd that it inherited from World of Warcraft.  Obviously this isn’t all that a crafting system could be, and it could have played into the player ship idea.</p>
<p>With all of those weird factions, groups, splits and hegemonies in the galaxy, I’m amazed to see no reputation system make it into the game.  Again, this could easily be developed into its own endgame for those who enjoy that type of thing, or those chasing rare craft or mission patterns as well as open-slot gear.</p>
<p>I’d have LOVED to have seen an RP interface to actually promote RP communities, servers and guilds.  You know, something like MRP or GHI making it into the game as default rather than relying on websites to both design and drive your RP gaming.</p>
<p>Companion development could have been far more in-depth, using them to both develop your crafting abilities as well as actually having them interrelate and interact with one another at endgame.  They start off with certain bonuses, but the ability to work with them to change it would have been appreciated.</p>
<p>I’m at work so can’t really go into it, but that’s some of the things I’d have enjoyed seeing available.  Some of the bare bones are in there, I just like the idea of the potential being developed for those that want to play with their friends in an aesthetic they like (Star Wars galaxy), but have meaningful things to do that don’t require dungeon/warfront grinds.</p>
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		<title>By: PB</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/swtor-flashpoints-and-the-disconnect-between-endgame-and-story-flow-spoilers/#comment-17318</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[PB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:27:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6154#comment-17318</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[But the real question is, what can change the nature of a man?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the real question is, what can change the nature of a man?</p>
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		<title>By: Craftygod</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/swtor-flashpoints-and-the-disconnect-between-endgame-and-story-flow-spoilers/#comment-17317</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Craftygod]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:07:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6154#comment-17317</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I keep reading write-ups about the &quot;end-game&quot; in SW:TOR and other MMO&#039;s (not that this is particularly what this article is about), and I keep coming back to the same question . . . why do we expect an &quot;end-game&quot; to these games?  When I played Dragon Age or Baldur&#039;s Gate or Neverwinter Nights or any other RPG on the market, there came a time, though in some cases after hours and hours of playing and replaying, when I had seen all there was to see and conquered all there was to conquer.  When I get to 50 on my Sith Assassin (only a few levels away), I&#039;m sure I&#039;ll do like I did with my characters in WoW; I&#039;ll run a few of the end-game dungeons and/or raids, max out my crafting, and then let the character sit until another patch or x-pac is released.  This is exactly the same thing I did in the aforementioned single player games . . . In all of them, I reached a point where there was really nothing left to do, so I simply re-rolled another character or played a different game until some more content was released.  In my opinion, the monthly subscription doesn&#039;t pay for a company to make sure that I never reach a content cap; instead, I think it pays for the consistent, though sometimes delayed, updates that come, increasing the content available.  This has been my biggest complaint with WoW in the last couple years.  I have reached the end of the current content again, but now, since the levelling process has been so dumbed down in order to speed up reaching the &quot;end-game&quot; content, I don&#039;t feel like doing it.  In other games, I enjoy the story, the progression of leveling up gear, abilities, etc. and in accomplishing a completion of the &quot;last boss.&quot;  WoW has lost what little story it had, in my opinion, and so many people try to level so quickly that the gear that can be acquired as one levels has become majorly inconsequential.  I&#039;m glad to see that SW:TOR has spent a lot of time on making the leveling an enjoyable, even memorable, experience, even if that means there is a &quot;lack&quot; of end-game.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I keep reading write-ups about the &#8220;end-game&#8221; in SW:TOR and other MMO&#8217;s (not that this is particularly what this article is about), and I keep coming back to the same question . . . why do we expect an &#8220;end-game&#8221; to these games?  When I played Dragon Age or Baldur&#8217;s Gate or Neverwinter Nights or any other RPG on the market, there came a time, though in some cases after hours and hours of playing and replaying, when I had seen all there was to see and conquered all there was to conquer.  When I get to 50 on my Sith Assassin (only a few levels away), I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;ll do like I did with my characters in WoW; I&#8217;ll run a few of the end-game dungeons and/or raids, max out my crafting, and then let the character sit until another patch or x-pac is released.  This is exactly the same thing I did in the aforementioned single player games . . . In all of them, I reached a point where there was really nothing left to do, so I simply re-rolled another character or played a different game until some more content was released.  In my opinion, the monthly subscription doesn&#8217;t pay for a company to make sure that I never reach a content cap; instead, I think it pays for the consistent, though sometimes delayed, updates that come, increasing the content available.  This has been my biggest complaint with WoW in the last couple years.  I have reached the end of the current content again, but now, since the levelling process has been so dumbed down in order to speed up reaching the &#8220;end-game&#8221; content, I don&#8217;t feel like doing it.  In other games, I enjoy the story, the progression of leveling up gear, abilities, etc. and in accomplishing a completion of the &#8220;last boss.&#8221;  WoW has lost what little story it had, in my opinion, and so many people try to level so quickly that the gear that can be acquired as one levels has become majorly inconsequential.  I&#8217;m glad to see that SW:TOR has spent a lot of time on making the leveling an enjoyable, even memorable, experience, even if that means there is a &#8220;lack&#8221; of end-game.</p>
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