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	<title>Comments on: The problem of difficulty in CRPGs</title>
	<atom:link href="http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/the-problem-of-difficulty-in-crpgs/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/the-problem-of-difficulty-in-crpgs/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
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		<title>By: Tremayne</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/the-problem-of-difficulty-in-crpgs/#comment-17431</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tremayne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Feb 2012 09:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6193#comment-17431</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There&#039;s a difference in boss or raid design between the old DAoC world bosses and the modern &#039;WoW-style&#039; raid boss, and I think it&#039;s the difference between the designers giving the players a mission statement and a recipe.

The old-style design set down a challenge - here&#039;s a giant demon, X many hit points, damage output Y, farts a fireball every 45 seconds, summons adds every five minutes or whenever he incinerates a rogue. It was then up to the players how they solved that problem. The fight might take longer some ways, but if the players had more tanks and less DPS than expected at least there was a trade-off that the adds were easier to cope with.

The new style is more like cooking from a recipe book - for a Downed Dragon (Avec Loot Coulis) you need TWO tanks with THIS much mitigation and three healers with THAT much throughput and FIVE DPS who together should add up to THIS MUCH on their epeen meter while not standing in the fire. There&#039;s no room for flexibility there. You do the encounter as intended or not at all.

What I can&#039;t figure out for the life of me is why anyone thinks the new approach is so much better than the old way.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a difference in boss or raid design between the old DAoC world bosses and the modern &#8216;WoW-style&#8217; raid boss, and I think it&#8217;s the difference between the designers giving the players a mission statement and a recipe.</p>
<p>The old-style design set down a challenge &#8211; here&#8217;s a giant demon, X many hit points, damage output Y, farts a fireball every 45 seconds, summons adds every five minutes or whenever he incinerates a rogue. It was then up to the players how they solved that problem. The fight might take longer some ways, but if the players had more tanks and less DPS than expected at least there was a trade-off that the adds were easier to cope with.</p>
<p>The new style is more like cooking from a recipe book &#8211; for a Downed Dragon (Avec Loot Coulis) you need TWO tanks with THIS much mitigation and three healers with THAT much throughput and FIVE DPS who together should add up to THIS MUCH on their epeen meter while not standing in the fire. There&#8217;s no room for flexibility there. You do the encounter as intended or not at all.</p>
<p>What I can&#8217;t figure out for the life of me is why anyone thinks the new approach is so much better than the old way.</p>
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		<title>By: Zellviren</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/the-problem-of-difficulty-in-crpgs/#comment-17429</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zellviren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2012 10:27:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6193#comment-17429</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Firelands lacked depth; there was no other way to deal with the “mechanics” of Lord Rhyolith, Beth’tilac or Alysrazor, other than mastering the pre-determined gimmicks attached to them.  Even Ragnaros heroic suffered the same fate – you either learned how to execute what the game told you to execute, or you failed.

This is what makes me sad when developers write off talent trees because the choices weren’t interesting enough for players.  The “utility” talents were routinely ignored because raw throughput solved practically any problem a raid group came across.  It wasn’t that the talents were bad by default, they were simply superfluous for the content.

And as you say, this all leads to one destination:

The relentless pursuit of more damage, accompanied by a complete disregard for everything else.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Firelands lacked depth; there was no other way to deal with the “mechanics” of Lord Rhyolith, Beth’tilac or Alysrazor, other than mastering the pre-determined gimmicks attached to them.  Even Ragnaros heroic suffered the same fate – you either learned how to execute what the game told you to execute, or you failed.</p>
<p>This is what makes me sad when developers write off talent trees because the choices weren’t interesting enough for players.  The “utility” talents were routinely ignored because raw throughput solved practically any problem a raid group came across.  It wasn’t that the talents were bad by default, they were simply superfluous for the content.</p>
<p>And as you say, this all leads to one destination:</p>
<p>The relentless pursuit of more damage, accompanied by a complete disregard for everything else.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/the-problem-of-difficulty-in-crpgs/#comment-17428</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 15:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6193#comment-17428</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know about content being bland, what I saw of Firelands was that the boss encounters seemed quite cool. But yes, I agree that this increasing emphasis on dps throughput has been quite relentless.

And it&#039;s ended up with a playerbase who are convinced that dps throughput is the only relevant stat in deciding if someone is a good player, which I do find problematic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know about content being bland, what I saw of Firelands was that the boss encounters seemed quite cool. But yes, I agree that this increasing emphasis on dps throughput has been quite relentless.</p>
<p>And it&#8217;s ended up with a playerbase who are convinced that dps throughput is the only relevant stat in deciding if someone is a good player, which I do find problematic.</p>
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		<title>By: Zellviren</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/the-problem-of-difficulty-in-crpgs/#comment-17427</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zellviren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 14:20:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6193#comment-17427</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Personally, I believe this has far more to do with WoW&#039;s bland design of content these days than anything else.  More tragically, new MMORPG&#039;s seem to think that it&#039;s purely WoW&#039;s raids that hold the key to its success.

If the only way to beat a boss is via throughput (Cataclysm), min-maxing happens.  If there are multiple ways to beat it (The Burning Crusade), you can be more free-wheeling with your choices.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I believe this has far more to do with WoW&#8217;s bland design of content these days than anything else.  More tragically, new MMORPG&#8217;s seem to think that it&#8217;s purely WoW&#8217;s raids that hold the key to its success.</p>
<p>If the only way to beat a boss is via throughput (Cataclysm), min-maxing happens.  If there are multiple ways to beat it (The Burning Crusade), you can be more free-wheeling with your choices.</p>
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		<title>By: Zellviren</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/the-problem-of-difficulty-in-crpgs/#comment-17426</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zellviren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 14:16:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6193#comment-17426</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That isn&#039;t a new concept; Phantasy Star III remains one of my favourite games because there was more than one way to skin a cat (or complete a dungeon).  I could go for a party with longevity, one with physical prowess, one with magical strength, stock up on trimates or just grab a few more levels or gear pieces.

More ways to solve problems is cool and adds depth; taking options away to &quot;optimize&quot; removes it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That isn&#8217;t a new concept; Phantasy Star III remains one of my favourite games because there was more than one way to skin a cat (or complete a dungeon).  I could go for a party with longevity, one with physical prowess, one with magical strength, stock up on trimates or just grab a few more levels or gear pieces.</p>
<p>More ways to solve problems is cool and adds depth; taking options away to &#8220;optimize&#8221; removes it.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/the-problem-of-difficulty-in-crpgs/#comment-17425</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6193#comment-17425</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is minmaxing when a vociferous playerbase shuts down options that would have been perfectly viable, just because they aren&#039;t /optimal/. I don&#039;t buy that you owe it to your team mates to be perfectly optimal all of the time, you just have to be good enough (and good company). 

eg. in WoW, you don&#039;t need a perfectly optimised group to knock out hard mode instances. You just don&#039;t. You need a reasonable range of roles and people who know how to play. There&#039;s no need of talk about how the minmaxers have to make up for someone&#039;s shortcomings when the group would do fine without a minmaxer in it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is minmaxing when a vociferous playerbase shuts down options that would have been perfectly viable, just because they aren&#8217;t /optimal/. I don&#8217;t buy that you owe it to your team mates to be perfectly optimal all of the time, you just have to be good enough (and good company). </p>
<p>eg. in WoW, you don&#8217;t need a perfectly optimised group to knock out hard mode instances. You just don&#8217;t. You need a reasonable range of roles and people who know how to play. There&#8217;s no need of talk about how the minmaxers have to make up for someone&#8217;s shortcomings when the group would do fine without a minmaxer in it.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Jones who is blogless</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/the-problem-of-difficulty-in-crpgs/#comment-17424</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Simon Jones who is blogless]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6193#comment-17424</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In any game where there&#039;s choice, there&#039;s going to be an optimum build. This is unavoidable. In any two choices, one is always going to be better than the other unless the choices are essentially meaningless. 

In a single player game, it doesn&#039;t matter. Because you&#039;re doing your own thing. It ain&#039;t hurting anyone. 

In a multi-player game, espeically one where you are performing in groups to achieve a shared goal, it does matter if you aren&#039;t optimised, since you&#039;re making other people trying to achieve the same goal lives harder, since they have to make up for your shortcomings. It&#039;s not min-maxing. It&#039;s part of the social contract to pretend yours isn&#039;t the only fun that matters in much they shouldn&#039;t yell at you for being crap, you shouldn&#039;t be crap. 

Though, on Skyrim, I have issues with that game in so far as once it got easy, it got really, really easy, even without any character planning beyond &#039;I want a guy with a  big axe and maybe that hat you have in the previews for the game&#039;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In any game where there&#8217;s choice, there&#8217;s going to be an optimum build. This is unavoidable. In any two choices, one is always going to be better than the other unless the choices are essentially meaningless. </p>
<p>In a single player game, it doesn&#8217;t matter. Because you&#8217;re doing your own thing. It ain&#8217;t hurting anyone. </p>
<p>In a multi-player game, espeically one where you are performing in groups to achieve a shared goal, it does matter if you aren&#8217;t optimised, since you&#8217;re making other people trying to achieve the same goal lives harder, since they have to make up for your shortcomings. It&#8217;s not min-maxing. It&#8217;s part of the social contract to pretend yours isn&#8217;t the only fun that matters in much they shouldn&#8217;t yell at you for being crap, you shouldn&#8217;t be crap. </p>
<p>Though, on Skyrim, I have issues with that game in so far as once it got easy, it got really, really easy, even without any character planning beyond &#8216;I want a guy with a  big axe and maybe that hat you have in the previews for the game&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/the-problem-of-difficulty-in-crpgs/#comment-17423</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 20:28:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6193#comment-17423</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think also they made some deliberate design decisions in Skyrim to encourage people to take it more freeform. You don&#039;t have stats to allocate when you level up, just pick a perk. And unlike Oblivion, you don&#039;t have to do anything really obscure with skill assignment to make sure the content doesn&#039;t get too tricky. It&#039;s just a very chilled out game, don&#039;t need to minmax, you can just outlevel the content if you want to make it easier.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think also they made some deliberate design decisions in Skyrim to encourage people to take it more freeform. You don&#8217;t have stats to allocate when you level up, just pick a perk. And unlike Oblivion, you don&#8217;t have to do anything really obscure with skill assignment to make sure the content doesn&#8217;t get too tricky. It&#8217;s just a very chilled out game, don&#8217;t need to minmax, you can just outlevel the content if you want to make it easier.</p>
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		<title>By: Kdansky</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/the-problem-of-difficulty-in-crpgs/#comment-17422</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kdansky]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 20:24:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6193#comment-17422</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d put it this way: CRPGs are strategy games. That&#039;s it. Point me to a mechanic of Final Fantasy or WoW or Skyrim which isn&#039;t strategy game.

http://insomnia.ac/commentary/on_role-playing_games/ for the long version.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d put it this way: CRPGs are strategy games. That&#8217;s it. Point me to a mechanic of Final Fantasy or WoW or Skyrim which isn&#8217;t strategy game.</p>
<p><a href="http://insomnia.ac/commentary/on_role-playing_games/" rel="nofollow">http://insomnia.ac/commentary/on_role-playing_games/</a> for the long version.</p>
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		<title>By: clockw0rk</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/the-problem-of-difficulty-in-crpgs/#comment-17421</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[clockw0rk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 19:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6193#comment-17421</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Pardoz - That and in Skyrim you&#039;re choice of skills and playstyle isn&#039;t necessarily open to valid critique from those random people online. If I REALLY like the look of the Steel Greatsword I can use it to my heart&#039;s content because I am not harming anyone else&#039;s gaming experience by doing so (That and if the low damage bothers me I can &quot;cheat&quot; and mod the game to make the Steel Greatsword&#039;s damage closer to Daedric).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Pardoz &#8211; That and in Skyrim you&#8217;re choice of skills and playstyle isn&#8217;t necessarily open to valid critique from those random people online. If I REALLY like the look of the Steel Greatsword I can use it to my heart&#8217;s content because I am not harming anyone else&#8217;s gaming experience by doing so (That and if the low damage bothers me I can &#8220;cheat&#8221; and mod the game to make the Steel Greatsword&#8217;s damage closer to Daedric).</p>
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