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	<title>Comments on: Bits and pieces; and thoughts from 3 years ago about the future of MMOs</title>
	<atom:link href="http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/bits-and-pieces-and-thoughts-from-3-years-ago-about-the-future-of-mmos/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/bits-and-pieces-and-thoughts-from-3-years-ago-about-the-future-of-mmos/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
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		<title>By: kiantremayne</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/bits-and-pieces-and-thoughts-from-3-years-ago-about-the-future-of-mmos/#comment-19148</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kiantremayne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2012 05:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6590#comment-19148</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I suspect there&#039;s probably only a minority of players who actively find a bit of downtime and socialisation &#039;repulsive&#039; - but it&#039;s the vocal minority. Remember Tremayne&#039;s Second Law of Forums: Anyone posting on a game forum (or a blog) is by definition not representative of players as a whole :)

I find that when some downtime does happen for whatever reason (after a wipe in a PuG, or waiting for an event to kick off) then most players don&#039;t talk - but if someone does start, then the rest usually join in. This can turn a wipe around from people going &quot;FFS noobs&quot; and quitting to pulling together and beating that boss.

My own theory is that the &quot;all solo together&quot; thing has become a self-reinforcing paradigm. New players note that the more experienced  others in the group aren&#039;t talking and are all about the &quot;go go go&quot;, so they behave likewise because they want to conform. Once one person takes the step to break out of that mould, the rest are happy to follow. So maybe the the way to make our MMOs more social is for us to be more social? :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect there&#8217;s probably only a minority of players who actively find a bit of downtime and socialisation &#8216;repulsive&#8217; &#8211; but it&#8217;s the vocal minority. Remember Tremayne&#8217;s Second Law of Forums: Anyone posting on a game forum (or a blog) is by definition not representative of players as a whole <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I find that when some downtime does happen for whatever reason (after a wipe in a PuG, or waiting for an event to kick off) then most players don&#8217;t talk &#8211; but if someone does start, then the rest usually join in. This can turn a wipe around from people going &#8220;FFS noobs&#8221; and quitting to pulling together and beating that boss.</p>
<p>My own theory is that the &#8220;all solo together&#8221; thing has become a self-reinforcing paradigm. New players note that the more experienced  others in the group aren&#8217;t talking and are all about the &#8220;go go go&#8221;, so they behave likewise because they want to conform. Once one person takes the step to break out of that mould, the rest are happy to follow. So maybe the the way to make our MMOs more social is for us to be more social? <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/bits-and-pieces-and-thoughts-from-3-years-ago-about-the-future-of-mmos/#comment-19127</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jun 2012 08:05:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6590#comment-19127</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the offer (he is a git, isn&#039;t he?) but I think you&#039;re probably on US servers and my characters are on EU. I do feel a twinge of &#039;well maybe I&#039;m just not hardcore enough to get to Inferno&#039; but on the other hand, I know this was the point for me where the game stopped being fun.

I&#039;ll probably roll a wizard next :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the offer (he is a git, isn&#8217;t he?) but I think you&#8217;re probably on US servers and my characters are on EU. I do feel a twinge of &#8216;well maybe I&#8217;m just not hardcore enough to get to Inferno&#8217; but on the other hand, I know this was the point for me where the game stopped being fun.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll probably roll a wizard next <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/bits-and-pieces-and-thoughts-from-3-years-ago-about-the-future-of-mmos/#comment-19125</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jun 2012 07:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6590#comment-19125</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think repulsive is quite strong language for a minor timesink (especially from someone who plays EVE :) ). But maybe games are just not going to be the places to build these communities in future.

It&#039;s sad, I enjoyed virtual worlds and the escapism of making different characters. I suppose the majority prefer to socialise online without the RP element, and gamers mostly just want progession. But for a few years, we had an overlap and it was very cool.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think repulsive is quite strong language for a minor timesink (especially from someone who plays EVE <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  ). But maybe games are just not going to be the places to build these communities in future.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s sad, I enjoyed virtual worlds and the escapism of making different characters. I suppose the majority prefer to socialise online without the RP element, and gamers mostly just want progession. But for a few years, we had an overlap and it was very cool.</p>
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		<title>By: Stabs</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/bits-and-pieces-and-thoughts-from-3-years-ago-about-the-future-of-mmos/#comment-19124</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stabs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jun 2012 07:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6590#comment-19124</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Designers like Raph Koster write occasionally of designing downtime into the game to promote socialisation, something always viewed as repulsive by the majority of players (10 minute waits at the shuttleport in SWG for instance). I think the social spaces issue is a good illustration of the problem of handing much of the design control over to the player base - some things just can&#039;t be fully appreciated by those close to the action.

We have a quandary now - any game using techniques to encourage socialisation is likely to be very harshly criticised by a sophisticated player base who see through dead time and resent it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Designers like Raph Koster write occasionally of designing downtime into the game to promote socialisation, something always viewed as repulsive by the majority of players (10 minute waits at the shuttleport in SWG for instance). I think the social spaces issue is a good illustration of the problem of handing much of the design control over to the player base &#8211; some things just can&#8217;t be fully appreciated by those close to the action.</p>
<p>We have a quandary now &#8211; any game using techniques to encourage socialisation is likely to be very harshly criticised by a sophisticated player base who see through dead time and resent it.</p>
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		<title>By: Milady</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/bits-and-pieces-and-thoughts-from-3-years-ago-about-the-future-of-mmos/#comment-19110</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Milady]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2012 21:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6590#comment-19110</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I read that old post of yours and, I tell you, it was spot-on. I understand perfectly well where you were coming from, as I have always been in that situation, being the hyper-social player that motivates all the rest to do stuff, which they later enjoy, but have to be &quot;pressured&quot; into doing. 

Sadly, you were also right in that soloers would take over the genre. I like that there is a choice; I like to get away from the social ties once in a while. What is not acceptable if that a by-definition multiplayer genre gets muddled up by all those solo/casual features that harm that social interaction that the soloers want to see but don&#039;t care to foster. I&#039;ve experienced the exact same situation you describe - organising an event and have people not come because it would alter their solo plans. On the other hand, I&#039;ve also had amazing and random events in which everybody had a part to play. In any case, it always takes a toll on you. I always end up being an officer or having some major role in the guilds I&#039;m in, because I care too much about providing for me and for the rest a good multiplayer experience.

What we&#039;re witnessing is the triumph of the casual. And, as we have seen, with it comes the devaluing of the community. LFD, LFR, those were tools that detracted the socials from an environment that was initially theirs, and also worsened the experience of those soloers who used to tag along, in those guilds that were social-managed, but which had their share of soloers. In my current guild we have a couple of people who only come for raids. It&#039;s a valid way of playing, of course, but I&#039;ve never been comfortable with it. I guess that for me MMOs are not &quot;just a game&quot;, they are my online community (now along with you bloggers :)).

Thanks for the link to that post, it was really interesting, and prophetic!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read that old post of yours and, I tell you, it was spot-on. I understand perfectly well where you were coming from, as I have always been in that situation, being the hyper-social player that motivates all the rest to do stuff, which they later enjoy, but have to be &#8220;pressured&#8221; into doing. </p>
<p>Sadly, you were also right in that soloers would take over the genre. I like that there is a choice; I like to get away from the social ties once in a while. What is not acceptable if that a by-definition multiplayer genre gets muddled up by all those solo/casual features that harm that social interaction that the soloers want to see but don&#8217;t care to foster. I&#8217;ve experienced the exact same situation you describe &#8211; organising an event and have people not come because it would alter their solo plans. On the other hand, I&#8217;ve also had amazing and random events in which everybody had a part to play. In any case, it always takes a toll on you. I always end up being an officer or having some major role in the guilds I&#8217;m in, because I care too much about providing for me and for the rest a good multiplayer experience.</p>
<p>What we&#8217;re witnessing is the triumph of the casual. And, as we have seen, with it comes the devaluing of the community. LFD, LFR, those were tools that detracted the socials from an environment that was initially theirs, and also worsened the experience of those soloers who used to tag along, in those guilds that were social-managed, but which had their share of soloers. In my current guild we have a couple of people who only come for raids. It&#8217;s a valid way of playing, of course, but I&#8217;ve never been comfortable with it. I guess that for me MMOs are not &#8220;just a game&#8221;, they are my online community (now along with you bloggers <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> ).</p>
<p>Thanks for the link to that post, it was really interesting, and prophetic!</p>
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		<title>By: Darraxus</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/bits-and-pieces-and-thoughts-from-3-years-ago-about-the-future-of-mmos/#comment-19105</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Darraxus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2012 17:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6590#comment-19105</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would be willing to help you out with Izual as he is possibly the biggest bitch at that point of the game. I found Diablo to be much easier. Of course, I am also a Barbarian with all of the fun meleeness of you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would be willing to help you out with Izual as he is possibly the biggest bitch at that point of the game. I found Diablo to be much easier. Of course, I am also a Barbarian with all of the fun meleeness of you.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/bits-and-pieces-and-thoughts-from-3-years-ago-about-the-future-of-mmos/#comment-19099</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2012 13:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6590#comment-19099</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I understand why it was important to the IP for them to make that choice, but I&#039;d like them not to do that again.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand why it was important to the IP for them to make that choice, but I&#8217;d like them not to do that again.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Jones who is Blogless</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/bits-and-pieces-and-thoughts-from-3-years-ago-about-the-future-of-mmos/#comment-19098</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Simon Jones who is Blogless]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2012 13:42:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6590#comment-19098</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In Witcher, the game based on the Witcher series, the long established and perhaps most iconic character in Polands weirdly over developed (Because real books were tied to the basment radiator and beaten with sticks during the cold war on account of being political, leading to many otherwise sensible people to write genre fiction) fantasy seriess about a guy who is a Witcher and also has a penis. I think we can probably excuse the lack of a female main character.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Witcher, the game based on the Witcher series, the long established and perhaps most iconic character in Polands weirdly over developed (Because real books were tied to the basment radiator and beaten with sticks during the cold war on account of being political, leading to many otherwise sensible people to write genre fiction) fantasy seriess about a guy who is a Witcher and also has a penis. I think we can probably excuse the lack of a female main character.</p>
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		<title>By: Dragon&#8217;s Dogma and solo playing &#124; GamingSF</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/bits-and-pieces-and-thoughts-from-3-years-ago-about-the-future-of-mmos/#comment-19090</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dragon&#8217;s Dogma and solo playing &#124; GamingSF]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:49:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6590#comment-19090</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] this over I read a post on Spinksville which continues the blogosphere discussion on the trend towards solo-isation of online gaming.  I [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this over I read a post on Spinksville which continues the blogosphere discussion on the trend towards solo-isation of online gaming.  I [...]</p>
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