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	<title>Comments on: Battlechicken&#8217;s Hymn of the Old Republic</title>
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	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/battlechickens-hymn-of-the-old-republic/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 22:20:19 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/battlechickens-hymn-of-the-old-republic/#comment-19422</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2012 11:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6614#comment-19422</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My response to Battlechicken was this:  if she knew she didn&#039;t have a bot installed on her machine, Bioware was in effect accusing her husband (on whose machine she also sometimes ran) of having a bot installed, and of lying to her about it.

Telling a person their spouse is lying is fraught with legal implications.  One could go to a lawyer to try to extract more information by legal force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alienation_of_affections]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My response to Battlechicken was this:  if she knew she didn&#8217;t have a bot installed on her machine, Bioware was in effect accusing her husband (on whose machine she also sometimes ran) of having a bot installed, and of lying to her about it.</p>
<p>Telling a person their spouse is lying is fraught with legal implications.  One could go to a lawyer to try to extract more information by legal force.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alienation_of_affections" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alienation_of_affections</a></p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/battlechickens-hymn-of-the-old-republic/#comment-19406</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2012 08:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6614#comment-19406</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I know the notion of being banned and then the devs refusing to tell you what the precise infration was does leave a sour taste in the mouth, but it is also true that they have good reasons for wanting to avoid letting hackers know which programs their watchdog code is picking up.

Like Thade, I usually maintain a healthy cynicism towards reports of false positives. At the very least it&#039;d make me wonder what other spyware was on the computer that the user didn&#039;t know about. But this one seems to be a story with a happier ending, so like I say, good on all of them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know the notion of being banned and then the devs refusing to tell you what the precise infration was does leave a sour taste in the mouth, but it is also true that they have good reasons for wanting to avoid letting hackers know which programs their watchdog code is picking up.</p>
<p>Like Thade, I usually maintain a healthy cynicism towards reports of false positives. At the very least it&#8217;d make me wonder what other spyware was on the computer that the user didn&#8217;t know about. But this one seems to be a story with a happier ending, so like I say, good on all of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Helistar</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/battlechickens-hymn-of-the-old-republic/#comment-19405</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Helistar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2012 08:29:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6614#comment-19405</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is the part of MMOs I really dislike
In all of them, the EULA plainly states (more or less) that they can ban you for any reason at any time and they don&#039;t even have to bring proof or any justification.
This means that all the time/friends/investment related to the game can be wiped in a second because some program/incompetent employee/etc. screws up.  And beside a PR war, there&#039;s not much you can do (yes, of course you could go to court, challenge the EULA, etc. etc.).

@bernardparsnip: from what I understand, anti-cheat programs look for specific software, since there&#039;s a lot of legitimate software which can do stuff which &quot;looks fishy&quot; (like key remapping / button-&gt;macro mappings, etc.).  My guess is that they monitor/infiltrate the underground and try to get signatures for the bot programs used, in order to target those directly.  Providing information on which software they targeted by mistake could disclose information on the type of approach they use, making it easier to circumvent it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the part of MMOs I really dislike<br />
In all of them, the EULA plainly states (more or less) that they can ban you for any reason at any time and they don&#8217;t even have to bring proof or any justification.<br />
This means that all the time/friends/investment related to the game can be wiped in a second because some program/incompetent employee/etc. screws up.  And beside a PR war, there&#8217;s not much you can do (yes, of course you could go to court, challenge the EULA, etc. etc.).</p>
<p>@bernardparsnip: from what I understand, anti-cheat programs look for specific software, since there&#8217;s a lot of legitimate software which can do stuff which &#8220;looks fishy&#8221; (like key remapping / button-&gt;macro mappings, etc.).  My guess is that they monitor/infiltrate the underground and try to get signatures for the bot programs used, in order to target those directly.  Providing information on which software they targeted by mistake could disclose information on the type of approach they use, making it easier to circumvent it.</p>
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		<title>By: bernardparsnip</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/battlechickens-hymn-of-the-old-republic/#comment-19403</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bernardparsnip]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2012 02:14:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6614#comment-19403</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m curious to know what delivered a false positive and why this is now a secret.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m curious to know what delivered a false positive and why this is now a secret.</p>
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		<title>By: Unknown Losses &#124; Kill Ten Rats</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/battlechickens-hymn-of-the-old-republic/#comment-19401</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Unknown Losses &#124; Kill Ten Rats]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2012 17:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6614#comment-19401</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Spinks points us towards Battlechicken&#8216;s battle with customer service: false positives on cheat detection and then a series of form letters rather than anyone responding to what she actually said. A week of fighting, blogging, and cancellation eventually led her to a human being. I wonder how many players would have just quietly dropped the game, upset, on receiving the first email and not tried to fight back and argue their case. I wonder how many would have kept trying after the second and third form email. &#8211;Spinks [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Spinks points us towards Battlechicken&#8216;s battle with customer service: false positives on cheat detection and then a series of form letters rather than anyone responding to what she actually said. A week of fighting, blogging, and cancellation eventually led her to a human being. I wonder how many players would have just quietly dropped the game, upset, on receiving the first email and not tried to fight back and argue their case. I wonder how many would have kept trying after the second and third form email. &#8211;Spinks [...]</p>
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		<title>By: thade</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/battlechickens-hymn-of-the-old-republic/#comment-19400</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[thade]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2012 17:03:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6614#comment-19400</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I read one of Chicken&#039;s early posts and then Spink&#039;s write-up here; nothing more. I hadn&#039;t followed it because, frankly, 1. time constraints, and 2. see my lingering ire re: League of Legends cheaters and jerks. The entire blame-game makes me angry; the effect is intrinsic to the &quot;genre&quot;, as it were. Not specifically Ms. Chicken. I don&#039;t know for sure that she got a false positive and I&#039;ve seen nothing public from SWTOR asserting that she&#039;s actually innocent and that they made a boo-boo.

What I have seen is a lot of hearsay. I suspect she was likely banned (why else would she be motivated to gripe about it) but 100% evidence here is like anything else on the Internet: utterly dubious. Meanwhile, I&#039;ve personally had a uniformly positive experience with SWTOR technical and customer support. I&#039;ve had half a dozen live chats with their staff and I&#039;ve never waited longer than ten hours for a ticket response (and I file *many* tickets). I feel anything she suffered (if anything) is more due to volume and confusion than anything else; it&#039;s forgivable. The people behind the scenes are people too; since my job is rather similar to theirs (while on a much smaller scale) I sympathize.

If the problem is actually solved though, it&#039;s a non-issue...and good for her: the game is awesome, everybody should play it. &lt;3]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read one of Chicken&#8217;s early posts and then Spink&#8217;s write-up here; nothing more. I hadn&#8217;t followed it because, frankly, 1. time constraints, and 2. see my lingering ire re: League of Legends cheaters and jerks. The entire blame-game makes me angry; the effect is intrinsic to the &#8220;genre&#8221;, as it were. Not specifically Ms. Chicken. I don&#8217;t know for sure that she got a false positive and I&#8217;ve seen nothing public from SWTOR asserting that she&#8217;s actually innocent and that they made a boo-boo.</p>
<p>What I have seen is a lot of hearsay. I suspect she was likely banned (why else would she be motivated to gripe about it) but 100% evidence here is like anything else on the Internet: utterly dubious. Meanwhile, I&#8217;ve personally had a uniformly positive experience with SWTOR technical and customer support. I&#8217;ve had half a dozen live chats with their staff and I&#8217;ve never waited longer than ten hours for a ticket response (and I file *many* tickets). I feel anything she suffered (if anything) is more due to volume and confusion than anything else; it&#8217;s forgivable. The people behind the scenes are people too; since my job is rather similar to theirs (while on a much smaller scale) I sympathize.</p>
<p>If the problem is actually solved though, it&#8217;s a non-issue&#8230;and good for her: the game is awesome, everybody should play it. &lt;3</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Meh</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/battlechickens-hymn-of-the-old-republic/#comment-19399</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mr. Meh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2012 16:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6614#comment-19399</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Normally I agree with you, Thade. Normally those that go marching to the forums are put down with a swift answer. It always seems 100%.

In her case though, they did come back realized, that they had no proof and in fact all evidence said 3 false positives. So the whole thing was a ginat debacle of a CSM banning mistake.

The other reason you can tell it was a bad ban, they gave a crap load of free time to her.

Otherwise, yes. It&#039;s really hard to believe potential cheaters.

Also I don&#039;t think you read the post all the way. If you did you might have realized, she did get answers. Problem solved. Sprinks is posing the question, &quot;How many others that didn&#039;t speak are gone?&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Normally I agree with you, Thade. Normally those that go marching to the forums are put down with a swift answer. It always seems 100%.</p>
<p>In her case though, they did come back realized, that they had no proof and in fact all evidence said 3 false positives. So the whole thing was a ginat debacle of a CSM banning mistake.</p>
<p>The other reason you can tell it was a bad ban, they gave a crap load of free time to her.</p>
<p>Otherwise, yes. It&#8217;s really hard to believe potential cheaters.</p>
<p>Also I don&#8217;t think you read the post all the way. If you did you might have realized, she did get answers. Problem solved. Sprinks is posing the question, &#8220;How many others that didn&#8217;t speak are gone?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Meh</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/battlechickens-hymn-of-the-old-republic/#comment-19398</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mr. Meh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2012 16:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6614#comment-19398</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You don&#039;t quietly drop when you are accused of something. That&#039;s probably why I beleived her story. They indirectly accuse her of cheating via 3rd party program, with no details, none.

You will go batshit crazy too if that happened. You just got banned for cheating. You need answers.

Actual cheaters on the other hand, are the ones that try to put in a ticket to reverse it, fail and then log off forever and say, this game sucks.

I know that when I played we had numberous openly hacking people in PVP. CS did amazing it countering them. 2 reports and they were basically gone inside of the week.

I know in one case, I was so tired of it, I put CS on the phone and had them come watch my account to see what I was seeing. After about 2 mins, they thanked me for my time and that they were going to do a little more investigating, of course, also advising me that I was not going to know the results would be stricly handled and I would not be further contacted.

I told them that we only have the same 20 people queueing on each side. If they did or did not do something, I would be able to tell. I got a giggle.

That is one good portion I recieved from SWTOR overall, depspite how upset I became at all other issues, the CS team has been the best to work with in almost all ways for anyother MMO I have ever touched.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You don&#8217;t quietly drop when you are accused of something. That&#8217;s probably why I beleived her story. They indirectly accuse her of cheating via 3rd party program, with no details, none.</p>
<p>You will go batshit crazy too if that happened. You just got banned for cheating. You need answers.</p>
<p>Actual cheaters on the other hand, are the ones that try to put in a ticket to reverse it, fail and then log off forever and say, this game sucks.</p>
<p>I know that when I played we had numberous openly hacking people in PVP. CS did amazing it countering them. 2 reports and they were basically gone inside of the week.</p>
<p>I know in one case, I was so tired of it, I put CS on the phone and had them come watch my account to see what I was seeing. After about 2 mins, they thanked me for my time and that they were going to do a little more investigating, of course, also advising me that I was not going to know the results would be stricly handled and I would not be further contacted.</p>
<p>I told them that we only have the same 20 people queueing on each side. If they did or did not do something, I would be able to tell. I got a giggle.</p>
<p>That is one good portion I recieved from SWTOR overall, depspite how upset I became at all other issues, the CS team has been the best to work with in almost all ways for anyother MMO I have ever touched.</p>
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		<title>By: Targeter</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/battlechickens-hymn-of-the-old-republic/#comment-19397</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Targeter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2012 16:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6614#comment-19397</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is, like, totally the opposite of what actually happened.  Bioware&#039;s software delivered a false positive for a cheating program.  When she inquired about why she received a one-week ban, she got form letters and no real responses.  That&#039;s what started this whole saga.  It ended with an apology by Bioware, admission of incorrect software results, and a very good lesson learned by the CS team.

And yes, they read her blog.  And the tweets that were directed at Bioware CS concerning the issue.  They paid attention and corrected the problem.  I highly advise you to go read the links Spinks posted so you can get the full story.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is, like, totally the opposite of what actually happened.  Bioware&#8217;s software delivered a false positive for a cheating program.  When she inquired about why she received a one-week ban, she got form letters and no real responses.  That&#8217;s what started this whole saga.  It ended with an apology by Bioware, admission of incorrect software results, and a very good lesson learned by the CS team.</p>
<p>And yes, they read her blog.  And the tweets that were directed at Bioware CS concerning the issue.  They paid attention and corrected the problem.  I highly advise you to go read the links Spinks posted so you can get the full story.</p>
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		<title>By: thade</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/battlechickens-hymn-of-the-old-republic/#comment-19396</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[thade]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2012 16:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6614#comment-19396</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Alright, alright. I&#039;ll bite. Since I don&#039;t know entirely what SWTOR&#039;s anti-cheat detection system does, nor do I know Battlechicken from a hole in the wall, I have only one other element of context...and that&#039;s a severe statistic gleaned from following the League of Legends forums.

Virtually every single time somebody pipes up with a long-winded, seemingly legitimate rant about how their ban or suspension was based on a false-positive - virtually every time - it is systematically dismissed by a moderator supplying evidence against them. What I have learned is this: even lacking evidence, I am not convinced that no cheating was taking place.

I don&#039;t mean them as &quot;fightin&#039; wurds&quot;...I&#039;m sure Battlechicken is very nice and - possibly - she has a legitimate case. There could be a third variable too...perhaps her PC is infected with some SWTOR-targetting virus that we&#039;re not aware of, or she&#039;s running some third-party game/application usage analysis program (maybe she&#039;s not even aware of it) and that&#039;s setting it off.

SWTOR&#039;s terms of service by no means obligate them to offer her the evidence she&#039;s demanding. It sucks but them&#039;s the breaks. Were it me, I&#039;d surely be pissed and rightfully so. If she continues to call them and email them, it might be righted...but it sounds like she&#039;s not really interested. So they lost a single customer.

It&#039;s not like they read our blogs anyway. :\ So, all that we have available are &quot;proper channels&quot; and &quot;other games&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alright, alright. I&#8217;ll bite. Since I don&#8217;t know entirely what SWTOR&#8217;s anti-cheat detection system does, nor do I know Battlechicken from a hole in the wall, I have only one other element of context&#8230;and that&#8217;s a severe statistic gleaned from following the League of Legends forums.</p>
<p>Virtually every single time somebody pipes up with a long-winded, seemingly legitimate rant about how their ban or suspension was based on a false-positive &#8211; virtually every time &#8211; it is systematically dismissed by a moderator supplying evidence against them. What I have learned is this: even lacking evidence, I am not convinced that no cheating was taking place.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mean them as &#8220;fightin&#8217; wurds&#8221;&#8230;I&#8217;m sure Battlechicken is very nice and &#8211; possibly &#8211; she has a legitimate case. There could be a third variable too&#8230;perhaps her PC is infected with some SWTOR-targetting virus that we&#8217;re not aware of, or she&#8217;s running some third-party game/application usage analysis program (maybe she&#8217;s not even aware of it) and that&#8217;s setting it off.</p>
<p>SWTOR&#8217;s terms of service by no means obligate them to offer her the evidence she&#8217;s demanding. It sucks but them&#8217;s the breaks. Were it me, I&#8217;d surely be pissed and rightfully so. If she continues to call them and email them, it might be righted&#8230;but it sounds like she&#8217;s not really interested. So they lost a single customer.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not like they read our blogs anyway. :\ So, all that we have available are &#8220;proper channels&#8221; and &#8220;other games&#8221;.</p>
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