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	<title>Comments on: If individualism is king in MMOs, why do I get the best &#8216;highs&#8217; from a good group?</title>
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	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/if-individualism-is-king-in-mmos-why-do-i-get-the-best-highs-from-a-good-group/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/if-individualism-is-king-in-mmos-why-do-i-get-the-best-highs-from-a-good-group/#comment-21211</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tesh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2012 18:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6776#comment-21211</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You&#039;re right, &quot;all&quot; is an inaccurate stretch and there are very few &quot;pure&quot; introverts or extroverts, but I think the trends apply, and are accurate enough to warrant game design that allows for each major type to find their own way in a game world rather than trying to shoehorn everyone into the One True Path.  Thankfully, game design is going that way as the MMO market matures.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, &#8220;all&#8221; is an inaccurate stretch and there are very few &#8220;pure&#8221; introverts or extroverts, but I think the trends apply, and are accurate enough to warrant game design that allows for each major type to find their own way in a game world rather than trying to shoehorn everyone into the One True Path.  Thankfully, game design is going that way as the MMO market matures.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/if-individualism-is-king-in-mmos-why-do-i-get-the-best-highs-from-a-good-group/#comment-21210</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2012 18:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6776#comment-21210</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I feel that the extrovert/introvert duality is very very simplistic, because most people have a bit of both in their makeup, depending on circumstance, the makeup of the group, and how they are feeling. Yes, some people are total extroverts/ introverts but those are a minority, and even introverts tend to enjoy the company of their friends (introvert isn&#039;t the same as asocial).

I especially dislike the typification that introverts are more capable of reflection and that extroverts are shallow minded loud people who can&#039;t think for themselves. It just doesn&#039;t match a lot of the people I know. (I think it was invented to sell books to people who identify themselves as introverts.)

I also think that the set of people who enjoy grouping in MMOs isn&#039;t just made up of extroverts. Sure, not everyone wants to PUG, but it&#039;s not fair to introverts to type them all as soloers. So basically I&#039;m really wary of typing all soloers as introverts and raiders/social players as extroverts because I don&#039;t think it is true.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel that the extrovert/introvert duality is very very simplistic, because most people have a bit of both in their makeup, depending on circumstance, the makeup of the group, and how they are feeling. Yes, some people are total extroverts/ introverts but those are a minority, and even introverts tend to enjoy the company of their friends (introvert isn&#8217;t the same as asocial).</p>
<p>I especially dislike the typification that introverts are more capable of reflection and that extroverts are shallow minded loud people who can&#8217;t think for themselves. It just doesn&#8217;t match a lot of the people I know. (I think it was invented to sell books to people who identify themselves as introverts.)</p>
<p>I also think that the set of people who enjoy grouping in MMOs isn&#8217;t just made up of extroverts. Sure, not everyone wants to PUG, but it&#8217;s not fair to introverts to type them all as soloers. So basically I&#8217;m really wary of typing all soloers as introverts and raiders/social players as extroverts because I don&#8217;t think it is true.</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/if-individualism-is-king-in-mmos-why-do-i-get-the-best-highs-from-a-good-group/#comment-21209</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tesh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:56:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6776#comment-21209</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d suggest that the &quot;you&quot; from the title may well be more of an extrovert than an introvert.  Extroverts function best within and most enjoy groups, while introverts are drained by them and vice versa.  Introverts tend to need extroverts less than extroverts need introverts.  This &quot;individual&quot; functionality isn&#039;t the same as the societal functionality, but societies are made up of individuals.

That&#039;s not a values statement, just the reality of how the different people function.  Good games (and societies) leave room for both and don&#039;t try to mold them into each other.  As Syl has noted, sociality really does work best when it&#039;s voluntary, not imposed.  It may not be the most efficient to start with, but once people are intentionally and personally invested, by their own choice, efficiency grows.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d suggest that the &#8220;you&#8221; from the title may well be more of an extrovert than an introvert.  Extroverts function best within and most enjoy groups, while introverts are drained by them and vice versa.  Introverts tend to need extroverts less than extroverts need introverts.  This &#8220;individual&#8221; functionality isn&#8217;t the same as the societal functionality, but societies are made up of individuals.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not a values statement, just the reality of how the different people function.  Good games (and societies) leave room for both and don&#8217;t try to mold them into each other.  As Syl has noted, sociality really does work best when it&#8217;s voluntary, not imposed.  It may not be the most efficient to start with, but once people are intentionally and personally invested, by their own choice, efficiency grows.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/if-individualism-is-king-in-mmos-why-do-i-get-the-best-highs-from-a-good-group/#comment-21192</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2012 21:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6776#comment-21192</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that due to being human beings, it&#039;s not possible to have a group without some amount of jockeying for status, and it is very characteristic of a collectivist society that people will do this by showing how much they can contribute to the group, rather than boasting about personal achievements. I can see with the crafting recipe it could go either way, but if you value having the recipe because it helps you forge stronger interdependent bonds with the group, that&#039;s probably collectivist.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that due to being human beings, it&#8217;s not possible to have a group without some amount of jockeying for status, and it is very characteristic of a collectivist society that people will do this by showing how much they can contribute to the group, rather than boasting about personal achievements. I can see with the crafting recipe it could go either way, but if you value having the recipe because it helps you forge stronger interdependent bonds with the group, that&#8217;s probably collectivist.</p>
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		<title>By: Samus</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/if-individualism-is-king-in-mmos-why-do-i-get-the-best-highs-from-a-good-group/#comment-21190</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Samus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6776#comment-21190</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Individualistic societies are still societies.  It doesn&#039;t mean you go off and live in a cabin in the woods avoiding other people.

I think too many people are equating individualism to Gevlon.  However, the chart indicates that &quot;transgression of norms leads to guilt feelings&quot; in an individualist society.  You still feel responsibility to others in society, but you feel that responsibility toward other *individuals*, rather than feeling responsibility for how you wronged the group.  Gevlon, of course, feels no responsibility to anyone, individuals or the group.

Your crafting recipe example actually strikes me as incredibly individualistic (even if it is not at all selfish).  You are proud that *you* have this recipe, it does not give you pride in your guild.  You are happy to help another *individual* in your guild, not to improve the collective performance of the guild as a whole.  A truly collectivist society would ignore that individual&#039;s ambitions, except where they benefit the guild as a whole.

Think of it like working for a corporation.  Yes, a corporation is a collection of people doing something which can only be accomplished by working together.  However, most people are only there for their personal compensation.  They care about the performance of the company only in that it will affect that personal compensation.  Very few people would sacrifice their own pay for the betterment of the company.

Ask yourself, if all of your guild mates left the guild to go to a new one, would you move to the new guild to be with your friends?  Or would you consider this to be a shameful act of betrayal on the guild itself?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Individualistic societies are still societies.  It doesn&#8217;t mean you go off and live in a cabin in the woods avoiding other people.</p>
<p>I think too many people are equating individualism to Gevlon.  However, the chart indicates that &#8220;transgression of norms leads to guilt feelings&#8221; in an individualist society.  You still feel responsibility to others in society, but you feel that responsibility toward other *individuals*, rather than feeling responsibility for how you wronged the group.  Gevlon, of course, feels no responsibility to anyone, individuals or the group.</p>
<p>Your crafting recipe example actually strikes me as incredibly individualistic (even if it is not at all selfish).  You are proud that *you* have this recipe, it does not give you pride in your guild.  You are happy to help another *individual* in your guild, not to improve the collective performance of the guild as a whole.  A truly collectivist society would ignore that individual&#8217;s ambitions, except where they benefit the guild as a whole.</p>
<p>Think of it like working for a corporation.  Yes, a corporation is a collection of people doing something which can only be accomplished by working together.  However, most people are only there for their personal compensation.  They care about the performance of the company only in that it will affect that personal compensation.  Very few people would sacrifice their own pay for the betterment of the company.</p>
<p>Ask yourself, if all of your guild mates left the guild to go to a new one, would you move to the new guild to be with your friends?  Or would you consider this to be a shameful act of betrayal on the guild itself?</p>
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		<title>By: RimeCat</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/if-individualism-is-king-in-mmos-why-do-i-get-the-best-highs-from-a-good-group/#comment-21184</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RimeCat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2012 16:55:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6776#comment-21184</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Syl, that&#039;s the way interpersonal relationships work in an individualist society.  You don&#039;t assume a role, you interact with people as people.

In the real world for the collectivist part of my job I know the rules - sir or ma&#039;am to an officer, stand when a General Officer enters the room, follow the chain for reporting, etc.  For the individualist side, dealing with the rest of the engineering team, it&#039;s talking to people to determine what needs to be done.

Lacking clear role definitions GW2 will land on the individualist side of that equation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Syl, that&#8217;s the way interpersonal relationships work in an individualist society.  You don&#8217;t assume a role, you interact with people as people.</p>
<p>In the real world for the collectivist part of my job I know the rules &#8211; sir or ma&#8217;am to an officer, stand when a General Officer enters the room, follow the chain for reporting, etc.  For the individualist side, dealing with the rest of the engineering team, it&#8217;s talking to people to determine what needs to be done.</p>
<p>Lacking clear role definitions GW2 will land on the individualist side of that equation.</p>
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		<title>By: Syl</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/if-individualism-is-king-in-mmos-why-do-i-get-the-best-highs-from-a-good-group/#comment-21164</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Syl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 19:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6776#comment-21164</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;How do you know what is expected of you if it is all up to your discretion?&quot;

you communicate more actively?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;How do you know what is expected of you if it is all up to your discretion?&#8221;</p>
<p>you communicate more actively?</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/if-individualism-is-king-in-mmos-why-do-i-get-the-best-highs-from-a-good-group/#comment-21158</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 17:14:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6776#comment-21158</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I thought the open world was all instanced in the first one, so not that many other people to interact with at all unless they were already in your group?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought the open world was all instanced in the first one, so not that many other people to interact with at all unless they were already in your group?</p>
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		<title>By: darkeye</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/if-individualism-is-king-in-mmos-why-do-i-get-the-best-highs-from-a-good-group/#comment-21157</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[darkeye]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 17:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6776#comment-21157</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[With dungeons and team PvP, you can be sure there will still be dedicated roles in GW2, though flexibility may win out, and they mightn&#039;t be called tank or healer. An organized group will want to bring as many of the conditions and boons as possible. 

I suppose the question is, will players adopt roles in the open-world if it isn&#039;t strictly necessary. For me, a rag-tag band of adventurers is more appealing than a well oiled machine. The classes are built to be flexible, and players can drop out of combat momentarily to swap out skills or major traits or gear, there is plenty of ways to support other players without being grouped with them. Will players bring their A-game and practice cooperative play in a no-stress environment, be patient and helpful, or rush through that aspect of the game to more intense challenges in instances, say there&#039;ll be a lot of both types but likely more in the first category.

I&#039;m more optimistic that even if individuals are more responsible for their own play, that they will still want to aid their fellow adventurers even when not artificially required by the game. After the launch commotion dies down, will there be a critical mass of conscientious and altruistic individuals to make a fun open-world? I&#039;m going to say yeah based on the first game, which had lesser emphasis on progression than most MMOs and playing with others was more important.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With dungeons and team PvP, you can be sure there will still be dedicated roles in GW2, though flexibility may win out, and they mightn&#8217;t be called tank or healer. An organized group will want to bring as many of the conditions and boons as possible. </p>
<p>I suppose the question is, will players adopt roles in the open-world if it isn&#8217;t strictly necessary. For me, a rag-tag band of adventurers is more appealing than a well oiled machine. The classes are built to be flexible, and players can drop out of combat momentarily to swap out skills or major traits or gear, there is plenty of ways to support other players without being grouped with them. Will players bring their A-game and practice cooperative play in a no-stress environment, be patient and helpful, or rush through that aspect of the game to more intense challenges in instances, say there&#8217;ll be a lot of both types but likely more in the first category.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m more optimistic that even if individuals are more responsible for their own play, that they will still want to aid their fellow adventurers even when not artificially required by the game. After the launch commotion dies down, will there be a critical mass of conscientious and altruistic individuals to make a fun open-world? I&#8217;m going to say yeah based on the first game, which had lesser emphasis on progression than most MMOs and playing with others was more important.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/if-individualism-is-king-in-mmos-why-do-i-get-the-best-highs-from-a-good-group/#comment-21147</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 14:10:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6776#comment-21147</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s a good point (about role expectations), especially if GW2 is abandoning the traditional tank/healer/dps trinity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a good point (about role expectations), especially if GW2 is abandoning the traditional tank/healer/dps trinity.</p>
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