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	<title>Comments on: [Links] Death of an MMO, Obsidian Kickstarter, Backlash for GW2</title>
	<atom:link href="http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/links-death-of-an-mmo-obsidian-kickstarter-backlash-for-gw2/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/links-death-of-an-mmo-obsidian-kickstarter-backlash-for-gw2/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
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		<title>By: Hypercriticism &#8211; Obsidian strikes back: Project Eternity</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/links-death-of-an-mmo-obsidian-kickstarter-backlash-for-gw2/#comment-21539</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hypercriticism &#8211; Obsidian strikes back: Project Eternity]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2012 19:14:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6827#comment-21539</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] bloggers have already reported on it, showing a level of enthusiasm that I can easily relate to. Spinks wrote on it, as well as Roguekish on Cloak of Thoughts. If you&#039;re interested in game theorising and [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] bloggers have already reported on it, showing a level of enthusiasm that I can easily relate to. Spinks wrote on it, as well as Roguekish on Cloak of Thoughts. If you&#039;re interested in game theorising and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: kiantremayne</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/links-death-of-an-mmo-obsidian-kickstarter-backlash-for-gw2/#comment-21538</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kiantremayne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2012 19:02:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6827#comment-21538</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK, long rambling post about WvW up now at http://tremayneslaw.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/thoughts-on-gw2s-world-vs-world/ :p]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, long rambling post about WvW up now at <a href="http://tremayneslaw.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/thoughts-on-gw2s-world-vs-world/" rel="nofollow">http://tremayneslaw.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/thoughts-on-gw2s-world-vs-world/</a> :p</p>
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		<title>By: Thoughts on GW2&#8242;s World vs World &#171; Tremayne&#039;s Law</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/links-death-of-an-mmo-obsidian-kickstarter-backlash-for-gw2/#comment-21537</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thoughts on GW2&#8242;s World vs World &#171; Tremayne&#039;s Law]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2012 18:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6827#comment-21537</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] we&#8217;re matched up against today. I&#8217;d been meaning to do this anyway, even before Spinks mentioned that she hadn&#8217;t seen many bloggers talk about WvW yet. Honest. I&#8217;m coming from the perspective of an old Dark Age of Camelot veteran, so I remember [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] we&#8217;re matched up against today. I&#8217;d been meaning to do this anyway, even before Spinks mentioned that she hadn&#8217;t seen many bloggers talk about WvW yet. Honest. I&#8217;m coming from the perspective of an old Dark Age of Camelot veteran, so I remember [...]</p>
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		<title>By: SynCaine</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/links-death-of-an-mmo-obsidian-kickstarter-backlash-for-gw2/#comment-21509</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SynCaine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6827#comment-21509</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve noticed the higher I got (80 now), the smaller the world felt because of the constant use of instant travel, especially across zones for the personal story. Lot of loading screens then, and even on my machine the loading times are not exactly brisk.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve noticed the higher I got (80 now), the smaller the world felt because of the constant use of instant travel, especially across zones for the personal story. Lot of loading screens then, and even on my machine the loading times are not exactly brisk.</p>
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		<title>By: kiantremayne</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/links-death-of-an-mmo-obsidian-kickstarter-backlash-for-gw2/#comment-21505</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kiantremayne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2012 05:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6827#comment-21505</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It was definitely the hype cycle that caused the scrutiny/backlash. Both SWTOR and GW2 promised to bring a paradigm shift with their &quot;fourth pillar&quot; and &quot;MMO manifesto&quot;. That&#039;s bound to raise expectations, not all of them realistic.
Rift never really promised to be anything more than a very well polished example of the current state of the art, and actually delivered on the promise.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was definitely the hype cycle that caused the scrutiny/backlash. Both SWTOR and GW2 promised to bring a paradigm shift with their &#8220;fourth pillar&#8221; and &#8220;MMO manifesto&#8221;. That&#8217;s bound to raise expectations, not all of them realistic.<br />
Rift never really promised to be anything more than a very well polished example of the current state of the art, and actually delivered on the promise.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/links-death-of-an-mmo-obsidian-kickstarter-backlash-for-gw2/#comment-21503</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:58:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6827#comment-21503</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the main thing GW2 and SWTOR did to get more scrutiny was massive hype cycles and just having more players. Although there is also the Bioware factor for SWTOR, I&#039;m quailing at the thought of the flamewars over DA3 already.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the main thing GW2 and SWTOR did to get more scrutiny was massive hype cycles and just having more players. Although there is also the Bioware factor for SWTOR, I&#8217;m quailing at the thought of the flamewars over DA3 already.</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/links-death-of-an-mmo-obsidian-kickstarter-backlash-for-gw2/#comment-21502</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6827#comment-21502</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s pretty open world compared to a lot of MMOs/ RPGs. 

I commented on In an Age that &quot;But the more I play, the more GW2 feels to me like playing in a casino. I feel that I’m playing against the ‘house’ as much as the other players.&quot; -- and the anti-immersive elements are starting to nag at me (just stuff like -- why can I mine iron with an iron pick in one zone but I need a darksteel pick in another zone, it&#039;s the same ore? The answer is &#039;because Anet want this to be a money sink, they know bag space is limited, and they know most people won&#039;t walk past a node without mining it so you&#039;ll tend to equip the most expensive gathering tools for the zones of your level, all the time&#039;). Because they&#039;re in the game of selling gold, the game has to be balanced to suck lots out of the economy -- so all the travel costs, repair costs (enjoy those graveyard zergs in those dodgily balanced end game instances), are all part of a system designed to keep the money supply tight for players.

I don&#039;t care about the economy being tight (if it is too hard to get gold then Anet risk players being discouraged but that&#039;s their problem really), and all MMOs require an effort of will to be immersive, but this particular type of design kind of bugs me. I also find I&#039;m getting some conflicting messages from the game - in particular about difficulty and how people are intended to play. Will probably write more about that sometime. So we don&#039;t always agree about MMOs but I can see where you are coming from with this. 

The game is fun though, there is fun to be had. So I don&#039;t hate it, I just don&#039;t love it either.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s pretty open world compared to a lot of MMOs/ RPGs. </p>
<p>I commented on In an Age that &#8220;But the more I play, the more GW2 feels to me like playing in a casino. I feel that I’m playing against the ‘house’ as much as the other players.&#8221; &#8212; and the anti-immersive elements are starting to nag at me (just stuff like &#8212; why can I mine iron with an iron pick in one zone but I need a darksteel pick in another zone, it&#8217;s the same ore? The answer is &#8216;because Anet want this to be a money sink, they know bag space is limited, and they know most people won&#8217;t walk past a node without mining it so you&#8217;ll tend to equip the most expensive gathering tools for the zones of your level, all the time&#8217;). Because they&#8217;re in the game of selling gold, the game has to be balanced to suck lots out of the economy &#8212; so all the travel costs, repair costs (enjoy those graveyard zergs in those dodgily balanced end game instances), are all part of a system designed to keep the money supply tight for players.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t care about the economy being tight (if it is too hard to get gold then Anet risk players being discouraged but that&#8217;s their problem really), and all MMOs require an effort of will to be immersive, but this particular type of design kind of bugs me. I also find I&#8217;m getting some conflicting messages from the game &#8211; in particular about difficulty and how people are intended to play. Will probably write more about that sometime. So we don&#8217;t always agree about MMOs but I can see where you are coming from with this. </p>
<p>The game is fun though, there is fun to be had. So I don&#8217;t hate it, I just don&#8217;t love it either.</p>
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		<title>By: SynCaine</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/links-death-of-an-mmo-obsidian-kickstarter-backlash-for-gw2/#comment-21501</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SynCaine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:53:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6827#comment-21501</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[“I realise this won’t be new to anyone who plays EVE, but it is entirely possible that Anet will do a better job of ‘balancing’ the economy than CCP.”

Off to a good start :)

“games like Skyrim, GW2, and this kickstarter, I hope the industry is getting a strong message that there is a really solid audience for open world fantasy games”

Did you just put Skyrim and GW2 in the same sentence about open worlds? Come on now. Skyrim has dungeons bigger than some GW2 zones.

“Syncaine not being able to summon a full-on rant actually counts as high praise from him”

That’s a great line, and not just because it’s about me (but mostly because it’s about me). It’s true though, GW2 is not completely rant worthy, but it is frustratingly mediocre and massively flawed while still being ‘neat’ enough to not make you outright hate it. I wonder how people would feel if it was a sub-based MMO?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“I realise this won’t be new to anyone who plays EVE, but it is entirely possible that Anet will do a better job of ‘balancing’ the economy than CCP.”</p>
<p>Off to a good start <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>“games like Skyrim, GW2, and this kickstarter, I hope the industry is getting a strong message that there is a really solid audience for open world fantasy games”</p>
<p>Did you just put Skyrim and GW2 in the same sentence about open worlds? Come on now. Skyrim has dungeons bigger than some GW2 zones.</p>
<p>“Syncaine not being able to summon a full-on rant actually counts as high praise from him”</p>
<p>That’s a great line, and not just because it’s about me (but mostly because it’s about me). It’s true though, GW2 is not completely rant worthy, but it is frustratingly mediocre and massively flawed while still being ‘neat’ enough to not make you outright hate it. I wonder how people would feel if it was a sub-based MMO?</p>
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		<title>By: kiantremayne</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/links-death-of-an-mmo-obsidian-kickstarter-backlash-for-gw2/#comment-21499</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kiantremayne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:12:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6827#comment-21499</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On the backlash, I would say it&#039;s surprisingly muted, which blows one of my predictions for 2012 out of the water. Syncaine not being able to summon a full-on rant actually counts as high praise from him for anything that isn&#039;t EVE or Darkfall.

I&#039;ve been meaning to write something on WvW from the viewpoint of an old DAoC player now that I&#039;ve had a chance to get out there and participate a few times. It might go up tonight, or if not then later this week - I&#039;ll be back with a link when it does. I&#039;ve deliberately not touched sPvP because I&#039;ve had my fill of battleground style PvP in WoW, WAR, Rift and SWTOR and I hunger for old-style RvR or the nearest equivalent. However, I do seem to have earned a few points towards PvP rank from playing a couple of matches of Keg Brawl :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the backlash, I would say it&#8217;s surprisingly muted, which blows one of my predictions for 2012 out of the water. Syncaine not being able to summon a full-on rant actually counts as high praise from him for anything that isn&#8217;t EVE or Darkfall.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been meaning to write something on WvW from the viewpoint of an old DAoC player now that I&#8217;ve had a chance to get out there and participate a few times. It might go up tonight, or if not then later this week &#8211; I&#8217;ll be back with a link when it does. I&#8217;ve deliberately not touched sPvP because I&#8217;ve had my fill of battleground style PvP in WoW, WAR, Rift and SWTOR and I hunger for old-style RvR or the nearest equivalent. However, I do seem to have earned a few points towards PvP rank from playing a couple of matches of Keg Brawl <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: azaael</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/links-death-of-an-mmo-obsidian-kickstarter-backlash-for-gw2/#comment-21497</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[azaael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:33:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6827#comment-21497</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I can see that PoV. SWTOR was fairly WoW like as well(okay, extremely so), but it brought in the Bioware-cutscenes into that MMO mix, and thinking back some more, I think it&#039;s apparently ginormous budget may have played into that(I still don&#039;t know it&#039;s exact numbers, but something around 200k-300k I heard the most.) 

As for &#039;revolutionizing the scene&#039;, I think this could perhaps take a little bit. The current MMO ship is VERY VERY big, and it takes a long time to turn a big ship, so to speak. (For the record, I don&#039;t think GW2 is going to revolutionize the scene, but I do think it&#039;s going to be successful enough-hell, it already IS very successful-to at least make other potential developers perhaps not as afraid to try something new.) 

While I do have a lists of the &#039;&#039;highs and lows&#039;&#039; of GW2, I suppose I managed to ride under the hype train a bit. Back in the dark ages of 1996, I had gotten very very hyped about a game called Final Fantasy 7-mostly because I loved the series since the first one(I had played the real part 3 on an emulator even already.) Well, it came out, and to this day I feel the game is simply &#039;okay.&#039; Not the disease-curing savior, not the bane of RPG existence-simply okay. But, having been SO hyped up when I was 18...I learned a lesson about hype. Ever since then, I always make sure to keep my excitement measured...which is why, I suppose, I escape the more scathing let-downs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can see that PoV. SWTOR was fairly WoW like as well(okay, extremely so), but it brought in the Bioware-cutscenes into that MMO mix, and thinking back some more, I think it&#8217;s apparently ginormous budget may have played into that(I still don&#8217;t know it&#8217;s exact numbers, but something around 200k-300k I heard the most.) </p>
<p>As for &#8216;revolutionizing the scene&#8217;, I think this could perhaps take a little bit. The current MMO ship is VERY VERY big, and it takes a long time to turn a big ship, so to speak. (For the record, I don&#8217;t think GW2 is going to revolutionize the scene, but I do think it&#8217;s going to be successful enough-hell, it already IS very successful-to at least make other potential developers perhaps not as afraid to try something new.) </p>
<p>While I do have a lists of the &#8221;highs and lows&#8221; of GW2, I suppose I managed to ride under the hype train a bit. Back in the dark ages of 1996, I had gotten very very hyped about a game called Final Fantasy 7-mostly because I loved the series since the first one(I had played the real part 3 on an emulator even already.) Well, it came out, and to this day I feel the game is simply &#8216;okay.&#8217; Not the disease-curing savior, not the bane of RPG existence-simply okay. But, having been SO hyped up when I was 18&#8230;I learned a lesson about hype. Ever since then, I always make sure to keep my excitement measured&#8230;which is why, I suppose, I escape the more scathing let-downs.</p>
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