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	<title>Comments on: [Links] Gaming ethics, Trolling trolls troll each other, and flimsy excuses to post a cute red panda picture</title>
	<atom:link href="http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/links-gaming-ethics-trolling-trolls-troll-each-other-and-flimsy-excuses-to-post-a-cute-red-panda-picture/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/links-gaming-ethics-trolling-trolls-troll-each-other-and-flimsy-excuses-to-post-a-cute-red-panda-picture/</link>
	<description>MMOs and game design</description>
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		<title>By: kiantremayne</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/links-gaming-ethics-trolling-trolls-troll-each-other-and-flimsy-excuses-to-post-a-cute-red-panda-picture/#comment-21898</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kiantremayne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2012 06:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6915#comment-21898</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wasn&#039;t specifically thinking of Reddit with the child porn comment - I was actually thinking of an incident back when I was at university in the early 90&#039;s before half the people on Reddit were even born (and in that case the perpetrator was caught because we was using the university computers to host the pictures... and then let off with a slap on the wrist to avoid any bad publicity).

I may have not made my point well about my own anonymity - let&#039;s say that while I&#039;ve got reasons not to link the &quot;Tremayne&quot; persona to my real life name, job and address that persona itself doesn&#039;t get to hide behind anonymity because it&#039;s the one I use for everything game-related. I don&#039;t use another name to go and post inflammatory comments elsewhere, for example, so if someone doesn&#039;t like what I say somewhere they&#039;ll know it&#039;s me wherever I&#039;m posting.

Good point about separation... although the anonymity is definitely a big part of creating separation, and as I recall each of the Facebook trolls prosecuted here in the UK was posting under a false name.

I guess I&#039;m an advocate of one online identity per person, firewalled away from their real ID unless they choose to &#039;out&#039; themselves. Which is one of the reasons I don&#039;t like Facebook, as they would insist on outing me for the sake of having marketable data on a consumer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn&#8217;t specifically thinking of Reddit with the child porn comment &#8211; I was actually thinking of an incident back when I was at university in the early 90&#8242;s before half the people on Reddit were even born (and in that case the perpetrator was caught because we was using the university computers to host the pictures&#8230; and then let off with a slap on the wrist to avoid any bad publicity).</p>
<p>I may have not made my point well about my own anonymity &#8211; let&#8217;s say that while I&#8217;ve got reasons not to link the &#8220;Tremayne&#8221; persona to my real life name, job and address that persona itself doesn&#8217;t get to hide behind anonymity because it&#8217;s the one I use for everything game-related. I don&#8217;t use another name to go and post inflammatory comments elsewhere, for example, so if someone doesn&#8217;t like what I say somewhere they&#8217;ll know it&#8217;s me wherever I&#8217;m posting.</p>
<p>Good point about separation&#8230; although the anonymity is definitely a big part of creating separation, and as I recall each of the Facebook trolls prosecuted here in the UK was posting under a false name.</p>
<p>I guess I&#8217;m an advocate of one online identity per person, firewalled away from their real ID unless they choose to &#8216;out&#8217; themselves. Which is one of the reasons I don&#8217;t like Facebook, as they would insist on outing me for the sake of having marketable data on a consumer.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian 'Psychochild' Green</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/links-gaming-ethics-trolling-trolls-troll-each-other-and-flimsy-excuses-to-post-a-cute-red-panda-picture/#comment-21892</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian 'Psychochild' Green]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2012 22:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6915#comment-21892</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, anonymity has power.  But, I don&#039;t think anonymity was a big issue with the Reddit troll.  He went to meatspace meetups, he used only a single account, and he was obviously traceable enough for someone to figure out his real identity.  As I said, I think it&#039;s more like sitting in your car, feeling separated from everyone else and unlikely to meet most of the people again, so you feel freer to act out and do rude things you might not even consider when face-to-face with someone.  I think the fear expressed by the troll when the article writer messaged him with knowledge of his real name is more like suddenly finding someone in your car when you thought you were alone rather than someone coming up and ripping off your mask.  

(Sorry, I know this is a fairly U.S.-centric way of explaining it.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, anonymity has power.  But, I don&#8217;t think anonymity was a big issue with the Reddit troll.  He went to meatspace meetups, he used only a single account, and he was obviously traceable enough for someone to figure out his real identity.  As I said, I think it&#8217;s more like sitting in your car, feeling separated from everyone else and unlikely to meet most of the people again, so you feel freer to act out and do rude things you might not even consider when face-to-face with someone.  I think the fear expressed by the troll when the article writer messaged him with knowledge of his real name is more like suddenly finding someone in your car when you thought you were alone rather than someone coming up and ripping off your mask.  </p>
<p>(Sorry, I know this is a fairly U.S.-centric way of explaining it.)</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/links-gaming-ethics-trolling-trolls-troll-each-other-and-flimsy-excuses-to-post-a-cute-red-panda-picture/#comment-21890</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2012 20:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6915#comment-21890</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is a  power associated with online anonymity (ie. not being accountable iRL for online actions) which can be used for good, bad, or neutral purposes. And being able to remove that anonymity is a form of power also. 

And for some people, access to power is used as a license to abuse others. So I don&#039;t think it&#039;s unrelated to trolling, although clearly some people will find ways to be anti-social regardless.

I think we&#039;re going to keep seeing examples of internet trolls/anonymous experts taking out the anonymity of people they deem disreputable. Like &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=495917&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Anonymous exposing child pornographers&lt;/a&gt;. Not sure how the free speech advocates would respond to that particular use of free speech, but you can imagine what might happen if they made a mistake and outed someone innocent.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a  power associated with online anonymity (ie. not being accountable iRL for online actions) which can be used for good, bad, or neutral purposes. And being able to remove that anonymity is a form of power also. </p>
<p>And for some people, access to power is used as a license to abuse others. So I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s unrelated to trolling, although clearly some people will find ways to be anti-social regardless.</p>
<p>I think we&#8217;re going to keep seeing examples of internet trolls/anonymous experts taking out the anonymity of people they deem disreputable. Like <a href="http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=495917" rel="nofollow">Anonymous exposing child pornographers</a>. Not sure how the free speech advocates would respond to that particular use of free speech, but you can imagine what might happen if they made a mistake and outed someone innocent.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian 'Psychochild' Green</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/links-gaming-ethics-trolling-trolls-troll-each-other-and-flimsy-excuses-to-post-a-cute-red-panda-picture/#comment-21888</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian 'Psychochild' Green]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2012 19:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6915#comment-21888</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I disagree that anonymity plays a large part in trollish behavior.  You can find all sorts of idiocy on Facebook, and people are very much linked directly to their real names and other identifying information.  I think it&#039;s more the feeling of separation.  Consider how much more aggressive people can be while driving.  You can even see the other person, but that doesn&#039;t stop some people from saying the most shocking things about that person or their parentage, because they feel separated enough from that other person.

You&#039;re also setting up a double-standard where anonymity is fine for you because you want to separate parts of your life from other parts, but not for others with whom you disagree.  This is one reason why free speech supporters tend to be viewed as absolutists: once you start judging who is worthy and who is not, you open up the door to value judgments about speech.  This is fine, until a group decides that political dissent or speaking out against misogyny/racism/whatever is &quot;bad speech&quot;.

Finally, you&#039;re setting up a strawman with your &quot;child porn&quot; comment. If they were indeed posting child pornography on Reddit, then this should be a case for the police.  As far as I know, the U.S. government takes the exploitation of children very seriously and it carries severe penalties.  Since there hasn&#039;t been reports of busting a child porn ring on that site, I have assumed that the pictures are non-pornographic as I have no other knowledge of the site.  You might find the pictures distasteful or the purpose of viewing them offensive, but that&#039;s different than someone posting up harmful, exploitative pictures.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree that anonymity plays a large part in trollish behavior.  You can find all sorts of idiocy on Facebook, and people are very much linked directly to their real names and other identifying information.  I think it&#8217;s more the feeling of separation.  Consider how much more aggressive people can be while driving.  You can even see the other person, but that doesn&#8217;t stop some people from saying the most shocking things about that person or their parentage, because they feel separated enough from that other person.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re also setting up a double-standard where anonymity is fine for you because you want to separate parts of your life from other parts, but not for others with whom you disagree.  This is one reason why free speech supporters tend to be viewed as absolutists: once you start judging who is worthy and who is not, you open up the door to value judgments about speech.  This is fine, until a group decides that political dissent or speaking out against misogyny/racism/whatever is &#8220;bad speech&#8221;.</p>
<p>Finally, you&#8217;re setting up a strawman with your &#8220;child porn&#8221; comment. If they were indeed posting child pornography on Reddit, then this should be a case for the police.  As far as I know, the U.S. government takes the exploitation of children very seriously and it carries severe penalties.  Since there hasn&#8217;t been reports of busting a child porn ring on that site, I have assumed that the pictures are non-pornographic as I have no other knowledge of the site.  You might find the pictures distasteful or the purpose of viewing them offensive, but that&#8217;s different than someone posting up harmful, exploitative pictures.</p>
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		<title>By: kiantremayne</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/links-gaming-ethics-trolling-trolls-troll-each-other-and-flimsy-excuses-to-post-a-cute-red-panda-picture/#comment-21874</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kiantremayne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2012 07:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6915#comment-21874</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m very much in favour of free speech - what&#039;s so poisonous is the combination of free speech and anonymity. I can&#039;t bring myself to put someone who denounces a corrupt regime, knowing the consequences, with some asshole posting child porn for teh lulz because he knows he can&#039;t be called to account for it.

Of course there are limits - I try and keep my &quot;Tremayne&quot; identity pretty well separated from my real life name and job, but on the other hand I try and ensure that all of my gaming related posting is done under the one persona.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m very much in favour of free speech &#8211; what&#8217;s so poisonous is the combination of free speech and anonymity. I can&#8217;t bring myself to put someone who denounces a corrupt regime, knowing the consequences, with some asshole posting child porn for teh lulz because he knows he can&#8217;t be called to account for it.</p>
<p>Of course there are limits &#8211; I try and keep my &#8220;Tremayne&#8221; identity pretty well separated from my real life name and job, but on the other hand I try and ensure that all of my gaming related posting is done under the one persona.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian 'Psychochild' Green</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/links-gaming-ethics-trolling-trolls-troll-each-other-and-flimsy-excuses-to-post-a-cute-red-panda-picture/#comment-21873</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian 'Psychochild' Green]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2012 06:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6915#comment-21873</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For those interested in this topic, here&#039;s another article I came across.  I don&#039;t completely agree with it, but it makes some very good points about the nature of trolling really reflecting culture instead of being an aberration.

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/10/what-an-academic-who-wrote-her-dissertation-on-trolls-thinks-of-violentacrez/263631/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those interested in this topic, here&#8217;s another article I came across.  I don&#8217;t completely agree with it, but it makes some very good points about the nature of trolling really reflecting culture instead of being an aberration.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/10/what-an-academic-who-wrote-her-dissertation-on-trolls-thinks-of-violentacrez/263631/" rel="nofollow">http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/10/what-an-academic-who-wrote-her-dissertation-on-trolls-thinks-of-violentacrez/263631/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Brian 'Psychochild' Green</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/links-gaming-ethics-trolling-trolls-troll-each-other-and-flimsy-excuses-to-post-a-cute-red-panda-picture/#comment-21870</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian 'Psychochild' Green]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 21:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6915#comment-21870</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No worries, Spinks.  This is a highly charged topic for a lot of people.  I just see that free speech does more good than harm, especially for topics we both care about.

I posted a longer piece on my blog: http://psychochild.org/?p=1166

Anyone interested in this topic an feel free to bring discussion to my blog.  As a warning: I may be a free speech advocate, but I&#039;m not above moderating stupidity. ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No worries, Spinks.  This is a highly charged topic for a lot of people.  I just see that free speech does more good than harm, especially for topics we both care about.</p>
<p>I posted a longer piece on my blog: <a href="http://psychochild.org/?p=1166" rel="nofollow">http://psychochild.org/?p=1166</a></p>
<p>Anyone interested in this topic an feel free to bring discussion to my blog.  As a warning: I may be a free speech advocate, but I&#8217;m not above moderating stupidity. <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Links for October 15, 2012 &#124; Andrzej&#039;s Links</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/links-gaming-ethics-trolling-trolls-troll-each-other-and-flimsy-excuses-to-post-a-cute-red-panda-picture/#comment-21866</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Links for October 15, 2012 &#124; Andrzej&#039;s Links]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 16:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6915#comment-21866</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] [Links] Gaming ethics, Trolling trolls troll each other, and flimsy excuses [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] [Links] Gaming ethics, Trolling trolls troll each other, and flimsy excuses [...]</p>
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		<title>By: spinks</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/links-gaming-ethics-trolling-trolls-troll-each-other-and-flimsy-excuses-to-post-a-cute-red-panda-picture/#comment-21862</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spinks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6915#comment-21862</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I saw a lot of interest around Dishonoured, people queueing for the demo etc. It didn&#039;t especially grab me on a quick walk past but I have heard a lot of good things about it also. And since my partner (unusually) has shown interest, it&#039;s going to be on his Xmas list this year so will know more about it then :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw a lot of interest around Dishonoured, people queueing for the demo etc. It didn&#8217;t especially grab me on a quick walk past but I have heard a lot of good things about it also. And since my partner (unusually) has shown interest, it&#8217;s going to be on his Xmas list this year so will know more about it then <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Pai</title>
		<link>http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/links-gaming-ethics-trolling-trolls-troll-each-other-and-flimsy-excuses-to-post-a-cute-red-panda-picture/#comment-21861</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pai]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 04:51:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://spinksville.wordpress.com/?p=6915#comment-21861</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Trion got something like 85 million dollars in investment funding this year, which says something about the health of their 2011 balance sheets, I&#039;m sure. ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trion got something like 85 million dollars in investment funding this year, which says something about the health of their 2011 balance sheets, I&#8217;m sure. <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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