It came from the PUG: Do you want cheese with that?

Unfortunately(?), all my random groups this week have been pretty good so instead of pointing the finger at outrageous behaviour, this week we’ll have to settle for mildly annoying.

Achievements are not the Marmite of WoW, very few people actively hate them with the passion of a billion blazing suns. They are more like  Nutella. Everyone likes Nutella. (Oh no, I missed World Nutella Day! How is that even possible?)

But most of us like it in moderation, and not with every single meal. I reserve the option to say, “No thanks, I respect that your tastes differ from mine but I’ll have my steak without Nutella today.” Frankly, Nutella with steak is an experience you want to share only with very close and special friends, who will put up with experimental cooking techniques and later forgive you if it turns out to be disgusting. Now, imagine Nutella if you also won a special prize for eating a whole jar without throwing up. And if you ate every meal with people who insisted on slathering it over everything and forcing you to do that too.

Yeah, you might go off it after awhile too.

So, back to achievements. A poster on the EU boards this week suggested that the LFD tool could have an option for people to select if they wanted to do achievements on their random run.

This is actually the worst idea ever for the players who do want to do achievements on their random runs.

  • Everyone who just wants some quick badges will not select achievements.
  • Every experienced player who already has finished their dungeon achievements will not select achievements (at least not on their main).
  • Every player who hates achievements will not select achievements.
  • Every player who does not feel like talking a random group through one of the more complex achievements will not select achievements.
  • Anyone bored who wants to grief people WILL select achievements.

Nope, the best way to get dungeon achievements sorted out is either to assemble a group on your home server, or bully/ cajole a random group into doing them. Guess which of those options is easiest for most players?

Now, I don’t actually mind being asked if I want to do an achievement in a dungeon run. But I expect people to give up on it gracefully when I say no. Naturally in random groups, this often does not happen.

I was called a noob this week when I declined to attempt Oculus with 5 bronze drakes. No, the reason I don’t want to do that is because I am NOT a noob and I just want my quick and easy badges without having to care whether a random group can sort out drake cooldown rotations.

Given the reluctance of people in the group to speak up or show any other behaviour that would distinguish them in any way from a doormat, I should not have been surprised to see 4 obedient little bronze drakes, and then me on my red. I left. Perhaps they got a tank who’d put up with those demands and got the achievements for them. But I still wonder if the silent members really cared about the achievement or were just falling into line with the most shouty person in the group.

As a basic rule of politeness, I go this way:

  • If even one person in the group wants to kill an extra boss, then we go kill it.
  • If even one person in the group does not want to do the achievement, then we don’t do it.

To me, the basic assumption of LFD is that the group will clear the instance with no special achievements involved. So I think anything that differs from that needs group buy-in.

But achievement junkies are often not polite. They try to bully groups into doing their achievements. They harass and abuse anyone who does not fall into line. So I save everyone the bother these days and just leave as soon as the question even gets asked (unless it’s the sort of achievement that we were going to do just by completing the instance anyway.) No, I am not interested in helping Joe Random get his achievement. I don’t like Nutella THAT much.

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47 thoughts on “It came from the PUG: Do you want cheese with that?

  1. Azjol-Nerub. One of the fastest dungeons in the game. Takes no more than the 15 minute dungeon cooldown, so it’s never a bad idea to stay in the group.

    Three guys want to do the achievement for the first boss, and I figure why not, since I don’t have it yet. Two wipes and two invisibilities later, I’m starting to doubt whether I should leave or continue. My logic is that, as DPS, I will finish this dungeon before I manage to find a group should I leave.

    We get the achievement on the fourth try, and the tank asks if we can do the achievement for the second boss. Everyone says no, so he complies, but he has no idea how to pull. He pulls all the elites plus the ones that come out from the stairs. He pulls Hadronox, and despite my titanic effort to dps him down while all the adds are still up, he’s regaining health. I don’t see any of the dps’ers aoe’ing. It’s the tank.

    We wipe, I go invisible and consider dropping again. At this point, I’ve crossed the line of no return. Might as well finish it. We get him the second time, and we naturally get anub down quick enough for the one person who didn’t realize he didn’t have the achievement yet to get it. Took a good 35 minutes.

    • Argh, I’m having flashbacks now. Actually yes, my worst experiences with people wanting to do achievements have been in there. I think it’s because they can just ninja pull the bosses and try to force the group to handle it.

      • I have never been in a Ahn’Kahet PUG where they tried the first boss achievement. Twice, a person asked and the others said, politely, that this achievement is hard and the group probably doesn’t have the required gear and the person accepted to not do it.

        Another achievement is the experienced drake rider. It’s nearly impossible to find a healer who is willing to give up his emerald drake to get this part done. :)

  2. I dunno, Spinks. All the items you listed for why it would be a horrible idea seem like it would group the people up who actually want to do achievements. That doesn’t sound bad to me at all.

    That is, of course, going off the basis that if I select “no achievement” I won’t be paired with someone who selected yes to doing achievements. It may take a while longer for the achievement people to get a group, but … who cares? :P

  3. Achievements are like venial sins, in the end they lead to mortal sins (of game design and player mentality) and the game becomes dumb.

    They are the best way to create pseudo fake content for Joe Average, and he will like it. This is so sad! I will end my usual rant here. :(

  4. First of all, you should give Nutella Steaks definitely a try.
    Think of Chili-Chocolate Sauce these days …

    Now regarding your topic, I would turn your Rule of Politeness around.

    If someone politely asks for an achievement, we usually agree. If success seems questionable with the current setup we explain that.

    Although the game made a large Step towards anonymity,
    the basic concept of social influence still work.

    A Pick-up (by the way, why do we non native speaker always say Randoms and the native speaker Pick up?)
    usually has a negative connotation, but why?

    If I throw myself in the LFD-Tool, I am a Pick-up for the rest of the group. Obviously I am a nice guy, but more than often, I find myself being confronted with a certain tone, I do not like.

    On the other hand, I usually expect the Pick-ups to be impolite and to behave irrational.

    It is no surprise, that the behavior of a group is strongly dependent on the first impression. Therefore being polite at the very beginning usually provides a much better social experience.

    Saying Hello, using their names instead of their classes. It’s funny how “Hello everyone” “May I have a Blessing of somewhat” is too much for us, but how many angry sentences we throw out if “Buffs pls” did not work.

    Yes you are of course right, its part of our social hygiene, and who could serve this purpose better than a stranger.

    Coming back to your original topic:
    I agree, adding a achievement option would not solve the problem.
    In most cases, those who seek for achievements, just started, so they would find themselves in a group of level geared, while having one or two better geared would have served their purpose better.

    • Because a Pick-up is some kind of truck. :)

      Actually I think 99% (scientifically made up number out of now evidence) of the WoW players don’t go after achievement but like it when they get one “by accident”. That’s probably why there are the easy ones.

      If you have to decide achievements or not, then for all the casuals that means:
      - They will suffer through the harder achievements they don’t like, if they select achievements.
      - They will never ever get even the easy ones. Because there will always be an achievement hater who selected no and does everything he can to make sure the group will really get no achievement.

    • I was actually going to use kinky sex as my metaphor instead of Nutella but I thought, “No, think of the children!” :)

      I also agree with you totally that making a good first impression will make the group far more likely to at least engage with you when asking them to do something (or not to do it). I prefer groups where everyone starts with hello or good morning, or asks for buffs by name. Even if they never say anything else until ‘bye’ at the end, I feel more as though we’re a cooperative group with a common purpose as opposed to a bunch of randoms whose main goal is to piss me off ;)

      • “I was actually going to use kinky sex as my metaphor instead of Nutella but I thought, “No, think of the children!” :)”

        Made ya sound a little pedo there, Spinks :P

  5. I had a tank in a PUG with more than 40k hp who declined to do the raptor achievement in Drak’Tharon. I still don’t get why people sometimes are such dicks. It’s not that this achievement is hard or takes time. It just happens if the tank has at least 30k hp and doesn’t try to make it impossible.

    I think the boss is even faster with the achievement compared to killing all the small ones first and waiting 2 times for him to patrol away…

    • Ah yes, another instance where I’ve seen arsey dps just ninja pull the boss.

      I wouldn’t be so quick to judge, that fight is pretty harsh on healing — so if you have an inexperienced or not well geared healer, then you aren’t doing them any favours just to save a few seconds really.

      Also, as a tank, it’s really hard to see how many raptors you’re tanking because the boss is so huge. So if you thought you only had one add and then find there were 4 …

      • You just tank the boss and the 6 raptors, these days. Don’t you? Shouldn’t be that hard for a blocking tank. :)

        The group back then was actually good with more than 10k group dps. (Which actually most groups are when you queue at 11 pm when all raids end. :-)

  6. I’d like to eat, what I like to eat, not what others think, I should.
    Most of the time I bring at least 1 or 2 friends into my PuGs, I ask, if someone wants specials, or, if “my Team” can handle it, just do it on the fly.
    Most excuses in these silent and anonymous times are “I’m in hurry.”. Huh? Answer: “If You don’t have time, don’t play!”.
    Last night a friend looking for the battered hilt wanted me to do more than necessary mobs, so I asked if someone is in hurry, ignored the “A bit. ;)” and started to blaze through the mobs, four groups later the healer left group (in combat). One DPS wanted me to go faster. I didn’t wasted time asking him (ilvl232+) for decent dmg (sub3k), fun ended here for me.
    I see, why people don’t want to wipe on achievements and waste time and money. I don’t see, why they don’t have 5 minutes to do something, that might beneficial to all and take 10min lfg-lockout instead.
    A few weeks ago I read an entry which compared PuGs to P0rn, as I don’t like Nutella (see above), I don’t like P0rn and start to feel more and more dirty every social-fail-PuG I do.

    • I would leave, too, if you start to farm trash in PoS. There are multiple reasons for that.
      - Farming trash in PoS takes more than 5 minutes. It’s more like 30 minutes if you kill everything.
      - It takes 3 people to kick someone from a PuG. If you and 2 from your server are in the group it’s very likely that you 3 are farming for the hilt and will kick the other 2 two when it drops. When you’re kicked from the group before the rolling ends, your roll doesn’t count. Check the wow forums, this does happen.

      There isn’t a lock-out, you just queue with another alt. :)

    • I don’t consider any amount of trash an “extra element”, only bosses. :)

      On my tank I always do all 4 bosses in the kingdom, with the end boss last.

      I’m not actively asking the group but if they request to skip these bosses I’m fine with that. In my opinion the default is to do all bosses, unless no one cares to skip some.

      The interesting thing is that in every PUG at least one person gets the achievement for heroic OK on one of these 2 bosses. And most of the time the northrend dungeon master, too. That means they were already in that dungeon because they had the end boss part of the achievement done but not the additional bosses. I think most groups skip these bosses.

  7. Spinks, please take this as a compliment, but the third paragraph actually managed to make me a little sick ;)

    More on the subject…
    I know it’s heresy to say that, but I’m doing heroics not solely for the badges, but because I actually kind of enjoy them as well. It’s .. *gasps* .. fun. In an over-geared, puppy-beating, nerfed-down way, but still fun. Therefore, when I zone into a dungeon with optional bosses, the first thing I do after greeting everyone is to ask if people are okay with a full clear. Then I’ll basically do what they want to – they’ve most probably had a much longer queue than I had, so .. fair game as far as I’m concerned. Do you know how many people I’ve seen ding [Northrend Dungeon Hero] on Eck, Amanitar and the likes…? ;)

    • Hach, I love it.

      We call doing our daily “inverse Russian Roulette”, since we are four leaving one DD slot open, for a lucky random winner.

      Just imagine being a tortured random soul, grinding your way from one LFD-Desaster to the next. The doors open and four friendly casuals in their shiny high end armor are giving you a warm welcome, as if you are the person they just were hoping for.

      Granted, your first impression might change a bit, once our Mage tries to convince you that she is an undiscovered Schlager-Singer, leaving her husband in an attempt to wrap his keyboard around his ears…

  8. Oh yeah, the achievement requests in pugs. They really make uncomfortable. “Saying no” has always been a week spot for me. At’s really really hard for me. I guess it’s good practice. I say it WAY politely. You know longish explanations which aren’t necessary. I should learn just to say NO. or possibly: No thank you. This is a Nutella free run. A vanilla random daily. And if you want any other flavor, please check with your friends.

  9. I’m slightly off point here but its easy for this sort of thing to re-enforce negative ‘no consquences’ behaviour. Why bother explaining when you can just leave group? Why argue with idiots? The consequences arnt immediate or personal.

    As spinks says the main issue is that the very people who can effectively boost people through acheesement heaven are very likely the people who are half asleep and just in it for the badges and want a quick, hassle free run. Who are probably running it on 5 different alts and really really dont care if its ‘just as easy’.

    My advice? Be polite and friendly. And if people are rude…leave group. Dont reward bad behaviour and do your best to reward good. And /ignore works across servers and you wont be grouped with someone you’ve /ignored again. Its just a pity you cant /ignore entire servers…

  10. I usually give the group one opportunity to wipe before I get antsy. After the second wipe leaving becomes an option. I will stay if the group is making progress, and as a tank, I’m often “last man standing” on particularly bad runs, and honestly, I can remember the last full wipe that wasn’t an achievement run.

    Anyways, as I was saying, the group gets one wipe. You pick which achievement you want to wipe on and lets get it done.

    P.S. I’m the tank that refuses to skip bosses… I want my emblems damn it! >:)

  11. “And if you ate every meal with people who insisted on slathering it over everything and forcing you to do that too.”

    I kind of lost the meal at about this point…. just visualising these people leaping about slathering Nutella on the chairs and on the cat…

    I’m sure I had something shockingly insightful to say about the post as well…but now my mind is too busy dying.

    Hmmmm…well, yes, I agreed :) Achi-forcing is the worst – some people tried to make me do Volunteer Work not so long ago (an achi I could have got about 84 times were it even possible to get multiple achis), which irritated me not because I can’t heal through it but because it’s one of those “let’s the make the healer work harder than everyone else” achis.

    I said I didn’t want to do it. They said “ffs lol” or words to that affect. And then, as if I wasn’t in the same party chat, one of them observed sagely: “well, he can’t stop us.”

    And I said “If you don’t kill the volunteer, I will leave the group.”

    They didn’t kill the volunteer.

    I left the group.

    • Why didn’t you want to do it? Even enraged she hits like a little girl. It’s not an achievement you can wipe on. Why not do these people a favor? I know that you don’t have to as they are strangers. But what would you lose by doing them a favor?

      • I’m perfectly happy to do people favours as long as they don’t expect it as their god given right. ‘Can we do this achi please’ is a good start :P

      • Then I misunderstood your comment. Apologize for even thinking that you wouldn’t do someone a favor who asks politely. :)

    • I’m going to guess that a lot of it is in how they ask. If they ask nicely that’s one thing. If they demand it and start saying things like ffs when you don’t agree, then I’m not sure why you’d feel like doing them a favour.

  12. I’m one of those people who will get the Gundrak achievement after the 10th time running it when I finally get a group who doesn’t skip Eck. I don’t care about achievements personally, but I understand why others do. So when someone asks about an achievement my answer is always the same: I don’t mind trying once, but that’s it, that’s not what I’m there for and I won’t spend a lot of time on it.

    I did feel bad for a recent puggie who was one achievement away from finishing all of the heroic achievements–Split Personality in Nexus. I was kind of surprised because I have that one on many of my characters without even trying, and figured we’d get it for him. But it was during this lag filled week, and the simultaneous kills didn’t register properly. I’m sure he’ll get it eventually though.

  13. I will do an achievement under certain circumstances if it’s in an instance which happens to be my frost badge run.

    - If the tank and healer both agree to do it. (Absolutely key. Without them, I’d still be stuck in the queue or be forced to queue as a healer.)
    - The achievement is very easy or would’ve been gotten anyway. (Maiden qualifies as easy and Lokan as would’ve been gotten anyway.)
    - If it’s fun. (Anything Skadi for me.)
    - 2 attempt limit.

    If I decide to queue for a specific instance, then I’ll politely ask upfront if it’s possible. If they decline, I’ll drop out and go spam trade for a bit or ask a few friends.

  14. Utgarde Pinnacle, someone wanted the achievement for knocking Skarrdi down in one pass. I’d already done it, no-one was going to be the “spear person”. I was healing, I was having my hands full keeping the guys alive so picking up spears isn’t my thing. Tank comes up with the bright idea of everyone grabbing 5 spears (yes, you heard that right). In we go, 20 mins later one of the DPS pallies has tried to res twice while his corpse freezes in dragon breath, I have gone OOM once and then died when the tank doesn’t keep aggro and I run back in. Eventually we all get the Spears and shoot the guy down, it took at least as long as the dungeon normally lasts just for that one fight…. I didn’t need that kind of hassle when I was just badge farming.

    • A guildie of me always picks up all the spears and shoots him down in one pass. (That’s easy as no one does anything outside his role like, picking up spears, unless told to do so. :-) She made a sport out of it to see how many people in the group haven’t gotten the achievement already. :)

      If done right, it doesn’t increase the dungeon run by even a second.

      • I know. :) I’ve seen these groups where Skadi never comes down and spears despawn. I think most of the time it’s not related to the achievement (it was in your case) but to the fact that no one feels responsible for anything.

        Have you ever seen a DD do the crate job in Strat?

        As long as you don’t do anything, you can’t be blamed for doing it wrong.

      • Har… crate job…
        Zoned in with my tree, others already outside of of the starting building, but as usual I get my q-item to HELP discover the crates… Oh, ZAP! they missed the fir… ehm… ZAP!… “Hey guys, who’s on the crates?”, “Uhm. Oh. Forgot it!” x4. ZAP! “Lazy pack!” ZAP! ZAP!. But don’t think, they managed to speak to Chromie…
        Tank said, he did the instance several times… but was VERY surprised to see the extra boss…

  15. I like achievements in general (got the heroic 5-man achieve around March last year), but there certainly are plenty that I have no intention of pursuing, like plenty of pets.

    So, when someone asks to do one in a random pug, I usually say, “please NO.” However, if the other 4 want to do it, I’ll say, “OK, BUT if we wipe ONCE, then we do it normal.” I’ve only had one group not agree with that, and I immediately wished them well and dropped group.

    As Tamarind calls it, the Sanity Tap isn’t worth getting too upset over. For me, the Sanity Tap isn’t worth wiping repeatedly over, either.

  16. “If even one person in the group wants to kill an extra boss, then we go kill it.”

    …Unless it’s the Mushroom boss in Old Kingdom, whom I find tedious, and quite deep in trash.

    Cheese wise, I was thinking about this. In general I’ll try most things once. Things I wont try in a PuG:
    Zombie-fest
    Ruby or Emerald Void
    The cheese from the last boss in Drak-Thaeron
    Watch him die (More than once, I’ll give it one shot)
    Party’s over (Obviously, since it would involve kicking a player)

    Respect your Elders and the cheese from Anomalus I wouldn’t have tried pre-patch. Now? Maybe.

  17. “Another achievement is the experienced drake rider. It’s nearly impossible to find a healer who is willing to give up his emerald drake to get this part done.”

    You must’ve messed achievements, “experienced drake rider” asks you do run Oculus 3 times on 3 different drakes and since the setup is pretty lenient what prevents you from taking a second green drake? Actually even in pre-nerf days the most common tactic was red, 2 green, 2 yellow and only the second most popular and usual 1 red, 1 green, 3 yellow. Last time I got Oculus as daily we got some “sorry I’m first time here” player who just took second red drake and we really couldn’t bother with explaining him, I told him “spam button 1 and 2″ and other 4 people did their jobs. Did anyone die? No one, except the boss.

    * * *
    “I had a tank in a PUG with more than 40k hp who declined to do the raptor achievement in Drak’Tharon. I still don’t get why people sometimes are such dicks.” I did this achievement a lot of times because I like the feeling of being imba pulling-all tank, same for charged general in HOL. But last time someone asked me to do the achievement I told them sure, if you know the tactics. Most of the time dps screw it because:
    - they pull the first small raptor by the door, or even two, kill it and there’s not enough left
    - I pull everything and they still kill the boss before the adds, achievement failed

    * * *
    ““If even one person in the group wants to kill an extra boss, then we go kill it.”

    …Unless it’s the Mushroom boss in Old Kingdom, whom I find tedious, and quite deep in trash.”

    You mean like, jumping over the ledge and killing 3 mushroom trashes?

    * * *
    “Cheese wise, I was thinking about this. In general I’ll try most things once. Things I wont try in a PuG:
    Zombie-fest
    Ruby or Emerald Void
    The cheese from the last boss in Drak-Thaeron
    Watch him die (More than once, I’ll give it one shot)
    Party’s over (Obviously, since it would involve kicking a player)”

    Zombie-fest agreed and any other time consuming achievements like Share the Love or Abuse the Ooze.

    … Void well depends if I see whether people know how to use the dragon and how much HP their dragons have, 75k is default but some people already have 130k+ that makes it much more easier.

    Last boss in DTK?
    Tharonja has no achiev, what are you talking about.

    Watch Him Die, yeah, together with Respect Your Elders, Chaos theory and such, too annoying.

    Party’s Over was deleted from game, end of story.

    • It was? Gah! Why did I get that cheese!

      Sorry, not DTK, Gundrak. The “Everyone must be impaled” cheese.

      Aha! Share the love, yes, that’s it.

      • Why not the Gundrak one? It’s cake. Get the first 4 people out of the way (doesn’t take long) and then before the next impale, have someone taunt the boss off the tank. Boom, it’s done.

      • It’s amazing. On my tank I did the escort in Mana-Tombs a trillion time. There was a time when we all did time consuming things if someone in the group needed them.

        A few years ago, the game wasn’t about “me me me”. LFG might be the nail in WoWs coffin because it’s amazing how it accelerates the “me me me”-thinking.

        The impale in Gundrak, if you have two tanks, takes about 2 minutes… if someone’s baby wakes up it takes easy more then 2 minutes, maybe we should have a “only members without children” checkbox in the LFG. :)

      • The thing is, nobody /needs/ an achievement. By definition, they are completely pointless. It’s selfish to ask the rest of the group to do one — like I say, I don’t mind being asked politely, but it’s just as me me me to ask for a tedious achievement as to refuse to do it.

        The quest at least gave you xp and decent rewards at the time. I certainly remember people bailing before the quest though, and if we’d had LFD then I expect that’d happen more often.

        I don’t know if you were around in vanilla, but I also remember how hard it was to get people to kill the extra boss in UBRS that I needed for my priest tier 1 shoulders. No one wanted to do it. People haven’t changed really.

      • It’s hard to define what you “need”. You don’t need the XP from a dungeon quest, you can level up easy enough without. The only reward which was really good from the quest were the tank boots. So, no one “needed” the item. Maybe you wanted them, but people might also want an achievement. I don’t see a difference.

        But don’t get me wrong. Most achievements are designed to be an “achievement” and you shouldn’t ask the group to wipe for you. You should create a group of people who would like to do the same achievement.

        On the other side, achievements who bear no danger of wiping the group but take 2 extra minutes to achieve, should be done if someone in the group wants them. (My opinion, feel free to disagree. :) But if someone wants to do the old kingdom achievement for not killing the minions, you should really do that. Just refusing to heal that because you think the achievement is bad designed because it only forces the healer to do something is not acceptable in my eyes. If you do that, then you are a dick.

        It’s the same for me, I also start to help less and less. But it makes the game a less-enjoyable place, at least for me. I fully agree, with the LFG most people would have left.

        In vanilla in UBRS I never had a group who refused nor complained to do papa flame when I was on my priest. I said that I need that boss and we did it. I never could convince them to do the boss when I was on my druid healing although the priest T0 were the best a druid could get. (I got them on a run where the priest said he needs them and when they did drop he said that he already has them on the bank. But the other 9 were from the same guild so it probably was a running gag. Luck for me. :)

    • > You must’ve messed achievements, “experienced drake
      > rider” asks you do run Oculus 3 times on 3 different
      > drakes and since the setup is pretty lenient what
      > prevents you from taking a second green drake

      Ah, I see.

      In my realm pool, since the LFD, it’s an unwritten law that the healer takes green, the tank red and the 3 dd take bronze.

      Taking a second red on my dd did get a lot of complaints, although the reds do way more damage then the bronze if people can’t ride the bronze correct.

      But if you’re the tank, you can’t just pick a green. You have to get someone to take the red for you. No DD wants the red as the red is a single point of failure and DDs don’t like to commit to anything most of the time. Swapping with the healer also doesn’t work as most healers are not very flexible in that regard. They signed up to heal, therefore the green dragon is theirs. :)

  18. Sadly, I have met someone who does not like Nutella. My world was shattered.

    I’ve only asked for an achievement once in a LFD PUG, and that was in VH where the RNG really screws things up. I was afraid I wouldn’t get that damn water boss again, so I asked nicely and we did it and that was that. Fortunately that’s an achievement where nobody really has to go out of their way. I even pushed all the buttons. As a healer.

    But things like Share the Love that rely on the patience of the group are something I would neeeeever ask for in a LFG PUG. I have guildies to abuse for that.

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